Patience in action Options

[whitemark]

Read this post here at resource-zone : http://www.resource-zone.com/forum/showthr...read.php?t=9895

Man, the guy sure is patient to come back to the forum again and again to request his site status!

[bragadocchio]

He doesn't seem to be getting anywhere though.

We have no idea how busy that category is. There is a notice on one of the categories he submitted to that the last time it was updated was in June.

Out of the 39 pages listed in that category, two are giving me "cannot find server" messages, one has a simple one line -"page under construction - please revisit later", and another indicates that the page is no longer available.

I would imagine that some type of automated tool telling editors that links lead to sites that no longer exist would be really helpful. I know of at least one tool like that which is free. Maybe they use something along those lines, but have so much to do that they can't get to it.

[kensplace]

dmoz in my opinion is just a joke these days, any directory with a service level that they have is doooooooomed to failure, its only hanging on due to its owners, and the fact it used to be big. It has nothing actually going for it, other than the fact it is big, owned by big boys and girls, and gives its data away free.

The editors are unprofessional, slow, and usually dead by the looks of it, as they dont seem to reply, the whole site needs a serious revamp.

There may be some good odp editors out there, but they are in the minority from what I can see.

If any other startup web search directory/engine behaved the way the odp does then they would not last a month, dmoz gets away with it due to its past and its owners. Shameful in my eyes that they behave this way.

[whitemark]

My intention in posting that link here wasn't to derogate DMOZ in anyway, rather it was point to the desperation or tenacity (however you want to look at it) of the submitter.

dmoz in my opinion is just a joke these days, any directory with a service level that they have is doooooooomed to failure, its only hanging on due to its owners, and the fact it used to be big.

It has integrity. None of the other directories come even close.
I think it might surprise you to know that the actual targetted 'customers' of the directory have no complain about its exemplary service. Having read that last line, I know you must be saying, "Exemplary!!? You've got to be kidding?" (I've toned down the language you might have actually used :)

Yes, because DMOZ's customers aren't webmasters who submit site. They are the users who browse it, and use their data. As a user, I am highly satisfied with the sites in the DMOZ directory.

Eg.: Shopping sites: They do a great job of adding unique sites (that means I don't have to check out 100's of Amazon affiliates).

The editors are unprofessional, slow, and usually dead by the looks of it ...

Editors work for free & editors who are inactive for 3 months lose thier editing privilege.
This will also help you understand why they are slow :

Here is a sample [the last few days I have not done much editing, typically this list is longer and even more boring] note how few of these are actually reviewed and published -- there is no way I'm going to send an email to everyone telling them what I did with their site

5 Aug
Wrong cat MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
PUBLISHED
PUBLISHED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
6 AUg
Adult site being spammed to several cats DELETED
Site not found 2nd time around Deleted - 2 alt sites added to unreviewed
Site not found - Could not find replacement URL DELETED
Site not found - Could not find replacement URL DELETED
Site not found - Still no page display DELETED
PUBLISHED
DELETED
Not English - ADULT MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English already listed in World DELETED
Not enough content to list DELETED
PUBLISHED
Not English already listed in World DELETED
PUBLISHED
PUBLISHED
Still not found DELETED
Still not found DELETED
Still not found DELETED
7 Aug
Removing duplicates in unreviewed, one left for review DELETED
English link does not work. Listed ok in World DELETED
Under construction and incomplete and wrong cat should delete but MOVED
What on earth are they thinking - Webspace is not spelled with \"N\" MOVED
Wrong cat MOVED
Wrong cat no content DELETED
generic spam DELETED
Still not found - very old submission DELETED  
Still not found - very old submission DELETED
Still not found - very old submission DELETED
Still not found - very old submission redirects DELETED
Not English listed already DELETED
Not English already listed in World DELETED
8 Aug
Waited for 3 weeks for the guy to get his site working - give up DELETED
Wrong cat moved
PUBLISHED
Not English MOVED
PUBLISHED
Dead redirect DELETED
Not English - not Construction and already listed in WorldDELETED
9 Aug
Inappropriate description and site not found DELETED
Wrong cat MOVED
Duplicate submission, already moved DELETED
Still wrong cat regional MOVED
Wrong cat moved  
Removing duplicates in unreviewed, one left for review DELETED
SPAM they keep submitiing every couple of week to various cats even though they are already listed DELETED  
Not English MOVED
Still not found DELETED
Still not found - old submission DELETED
You have go to be kidding himalayan travel site to Romania DELETED
Wrong cat moved down for later review

Till date (if I remember right), they've handled more than 2 million *spam* submissions.

DMOZ might not be a Yahoo or Looksmart, but their service is much, much better for the end user - no ads, no 'sponsored' listings and better quality sites.

[bragadocchio]

It wasn't my intent to bash DMOZ either. I do find it quite useful when I'm looking for pages, and the right search terms just don't seem to come to mind.

But it does seem like an overwhelming task, and I do wonder if there are ways that they can use to help them that they aren't using.

[kensplace]

But do you not think you would be even more satisfied if the millions of sites that didnt make it into dmoz were available for you when you search?
Think of all the bargains you are missing, think of all the information, research and technical data that is NOT available on dmoz due to its behaviour.

Yes, I agree what is there is ok, but what isnt there is more important.

[whitemark]

... think of all the information, research and technical data that is NOT available on dmoz due to its behaviour ...

(I'll post to that because I've nothing better do right now :)

I actually do conduct a search in Google apart from DMOZ, so trust me, I don't miss much. I use DMOZ (or rather Google directory), simply because it is the most comprehensive and fair directory so far on the internet.

I do not understand what you mean by 'DMOZ behaviour' though.

[kensplace]

By that I mean how it operates, let me explain....

I try submitting a site, at first I was actually granted the honour of a refusal email from a real person. shame they refused me, as I was genuinely interested in the area i applied for.

Later, I opened my store (told you I was genuinly interested) and applied to get the store listed, NO replies to any submission emails.

Its when a site cant be bothered to reply, that it shows its true colours.

Its when they turn down editors who do care, that you start to wonder.....

Its when you stop searching because you realise that if you were turned down, so may the other people with true bargains, or genuine sites.

Try it for your self, try searching for laserjet memory, or printer memory
no results - something wrong there.

Ok thats a specific search, but I am sure many other searches will show similar results, and even when results are found, they are almost certain not to be "fair" or "comprehensive" as the sites shown are down to humans who are often biased, if present at all!

[whitemark]

Try it for your self, try searching for laserjet memory, or printer memory no results - something wrong there.

I don't use DMOZ directly, but through Google directory. A search here displays a LOT of results.

--> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...%22&btnG=Search

[whitemark]

If your store is an affiliate or rather new (without satisfactory content), DMOZ might not list you. Remember, DMOZ asks you to 'suggest' a site. Its upto the DMOZ editors to decide whether to list the site or not based on the guidelines they have.

I suggest that you go to this DMOZ forum [DMOZ Resource Zone] and read the posts there to get an idea of how DMOZ works.

[kensplace]

Out of interest why does a search in dmoz fail? But a google search show results?

[whitemark]

Out of interest why does a search in dmoz fail? But a google search show results?

The search algorithm that Google uses is much more powerful and sophisticated than what DMOZ (or other directories) use.

You can find many such similiar search programs, like the one DMOZ or other directories use - Just do a Google search for 'search scripts'.

[brmehlman]

If you're looking for web pages about a subject, dmoz search is pathetic. But if you're trying to drive a ten penny nail, a crescent wrench is pathetic too.

The two main uses of dmoz search are finding a dmoz category and determining if a site is listed in dmoz. For the latter, you have to know how to form the query. Drop the http and the www, just search on the name.

For subject oriented searches, Google is probably still best despite everything people have done to try to ruin it by skewing results in the direction of their sites.

[Jean_Manco]

I would imagine that some type of automated tool telling editors that links lead to sites that no longer exist would be really helpful..... Maybe they use something along those lines, but have so much to do that they can't get to it.

The Open Directory does indeed have a link-checker, affectionately known as Robozilla. When I returned to editing recently, I was delighted to find that Robozilla is now running more frequently and effectively. Dead links are no use to the user.

Still some dead links are not picked up by Robozilla. If you spot one, you could report it over in Rezource-Zone if you have a minute. There is a thread there dedicated to these reports.

[JohnScott]

Yes, because DMOZ's customers aren't webmasters who submit site. They are the users who browse it, and use their data. As a user, I am highly satisfied with the sites in the DMOZ directory.

That is a line that DMOZ editors often fall back on when people complain about good sites not being listed for 6 months, or a year. Or two years. It is meant to invalidate the criticisms. "You aren't our customers, so we don't care about you".

So it moves the argument to new ground. But DMOZ fails utterly on the new ground as well. Users like DMOZ? Hardly. Find one person who prefers DMOZ over Google as a search tool. It ain't going to happen. If I want to find a "webmaster forum", I could go to DMOZ and find 37 (http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Chats_and_Forums/) of which a couple listings appear to be outdated, or I can Google and come up with 100's of webmaster forums, and the ranking of those listings is actually useful, as opposed to the meaningless directory-standard alphabetical listings.

I mean, c'mon people. You aren't kidding anybody. Who in the world would recommend DMOZ as a search tool to a friend or an enemy? www.google.com Common sense.

The idea of DMOZ as a valid search tool is rediculous. Even if they were responsive; even if they could review sites in under 6 months; even if they didn't deal with blinding amounts of editor-corruption; and even if they were able to afford half-decent servers they actually could deal with the traffic loads; even then, DMOZ could not compete with Google, Yahoo, ATW, or any other web-spidering search engine.

I know we all like to be charitable and give kudos to DMOZ for trying, but I think perhaps a more honest look at its virtues and vices is in order.

[aspwiz]

John Scott....

As (AFAIK) none of your sites in your signature are listed in DMOZ, could this just be sour grapes?

It is the case that certain categories on DMOZ have huge backlogs.
It is not prejudice that sites sit in queues for 6 months or a year, it is just that there are so many. I can see categories with several thousand sites awaiting review, and why should they not be reviewed in turn?

First in, first out is the way I review sites and I think it is the only fair way. As all editors have a life other than DMOZ, they can't be blamed for not reviewing your website on your timescale. Some DMOZ categories are just spammed to hell, others legitimately need more editors. That being the case does not make DMOZ a prime candidate for the ‘I wouldn’t p*** on you if you were on fire’ award.

DMOZ is not just a directory, it provides mission critical data to countless sites including Google… DMOZ is a perfect place for drilling down to some results you may be hard pressed to find on search engines…. Also, DMOZ can’t easily be Google bombed or manipulated. Sometimes it is the case where words have multiple meanings, and occasionally searching Google for stuff containing those words is annoying to say the least. It’s good to know that DMOZ is there in this instance.

John, I see you have a big axe to grind with DMOZ. As a DMOZ listing would help your websites Google search placement I surprised you are not venting and raging about google also.

DMOZ is a HUMAN EDITED directory. We as editors, spend a great deal of time trying to categorise a site and give a fair representation of it.... Google IMHO basically realised that any site listed in DMOZ is likely to be better or offer more original content than a similar site that is not listed (because a ‘human’ deemed it so, not a ‘robot’). DMOZ achieves this, Googlebot does not yet make a distinction.

I am not knocking Google, far from it… and robots at Google do a very good job of collecting the data to give us the most relevant SERPS we've ever had, but the 'human' aspect just isn’t present in a Googlebot... Google self admittedly states it has a long way to go till perfection. I personally think that giving extra weight to DMOZ listed sites brings Google that little bit closer to their aim.

[img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:rQRNeJYCqtwJ:http://new.kirtland.edu/athletics/images/twocents2.jpg[/img]

[jimnoble]

Find one person who prefers DMOZ over Google as a search tool.

Isn't that semantically the same as "Find one person who prefers an apple over an orange as a citrus fruit" :doh:?

[aspwiz]

What Jim said.

[gravelsack]

Agreed - the problem is with Google. If Google SERPs weren't affected by DMOZ, then there would be no problem.

[aspwiz]

But thats the best thing of all gravelsack. Google results are made up by a computer program, not totally without flaw, and easily fooled.
DMOZ listings are made up totally by hand, by people who put in enourmous effort in getting things right.

The fact that google uses DMOZ in weightings is a very good move IMO, because it introduces a human aspect that it would otherwise not have.

DMOZ entries are being used more and more frequently these days, and even Yahoo has started using the ODP data.