Where to from here? Options

[Jen]

I wrote an e mail on the spur of the moment, and out of the blue to a professional that thought I should post this same thing, here.

What the heck? I'm lost and feeling like I could use some advice.

I don't know why, because I have several "professionals" who offer me free advice. I guess it's because they all seem to lack internet knowledge, but have "business" knowledge. There is a difference, here, and some things, like the community I built, have a huge weight in what I am doing, what I am striving for, and how things should be handled. (Differently, IMHO)

Anyhow, here is the letter I wrote:

"I was just wondering how I did this.
I started a web site 7 years ago. Just a little home page with my fishing journal on it.
My web guy, who was kind of like a mentor to me, said, "Hey, Jen, see if you can get listed in the search engines."
I learned all the tricks back then, and tried.
OOPS. It's really listed, and now ifish gets a ton of hits, and has over a million posts on it's forum!
(Link removed on your suggestion)

How did I do this? What do I do NOW?

I have a web site that is eating my life. I have over 500 people waiting to advertise and I'm stressed out! I am disabled, and do not have the energy to make this all it could be.

I have so many business men coming to me to do the "baby, I could make you a star" thing, but no real answers. It's all of that, "Charge 'em till they squeal" kind of business talk. I'm not charging enough, yada yada... But, that's not what it's all about to me. Sure, I want to have money. Doesn't everyone? But, this is a community of neat people! There is more to it, than that! It's really no longer mine, so to speak. Ifish belongs to the community, too.

Help!

Jen"

This post has been edited by Jen: Dec 19 2005, 09:41 AM

[randfish]

Jen - Very glad to see you - welcome to cre8! I'm sure the crowd here will have great advice for you.

Personally, I think you need to decide where you're going personally and professionally - do you want the site to become your primary business? Do you want it to be a part-time endeavor? Do you want to monetize it, and to what extent? Do you want to try to sell it to someone and walk away?

Answering these questions first will allow us to give you the best possible advice on a course of action to pursue.

This post has been edited by randfish: Dec 18 2005, 09:27 PM

[Jen]

Good questions. I'm just learning to use your format, so be patient with me!

I'll work on those questions and get back to you with the answers.

This is exciting. I hope you can help me.

I am at a point where I'm so busy with my limited energy that just keeping the forums going, that I get that "brain is full" feeling and can't even begin to process how to think about the future, so more patience is desired from you, there!

I had an aortic dissection one year ago. (That's what John Ritter had. I was lucky and lived, but barely!) So I am still in recovery. I have something called Marfan Syndrome. Don't know if you know about that syndrome. It's not a whole lot of fun.

Anyhow, I'm glad to be here, and excited about possibilities.

Thank you!
Jen

This post has been edited by Jen: Dec 18 2005, 10:12 PM

[Jen]

Let me tell you first off, one important thing.

I am disabled. I require high risk, very expensive insurance.
I am currently on disability. I did not mean to start a successful website, although I have put my entire heart (no pun intended) into this site.

Since I cannot afford high risk insurance, (2000k+) I am stuck being dependent on our government, which I loathe.

My goal, of course, is to become self sufficient, but the government people will not give me a chance. They take me off insurance if I try to do that. That is a death sentence for me right now, considering my health. So, that is a very tough thing for me to deal with.

The only thing I can think of to do is to form a corporation, so that the funds are not mine, while I attempt to make a financial go of it.

That is, IF that's what I decide to do with ifish.

Ifish is a labor of love for me, and I sell ads for really low prices, and I'm not sure I have it in me to charge a whole lot more. I'm not much of a "charge 'em till they squeal" kind of girl. (Which is what I've run into with most folks trying to hep me from a business standpoint) I like to run things where everyone is getting a good deal, which is why I think ifish has been successful.

So, I may have to have a marketing person come in, and disassociate myself from that process, if it were to come to that.

There is the answer to a couple things!

I'm going to call it a night and think about your other questions. Thanks so much!

Jen

This post has been edited by Jen: Dec 18 2005, 10:16 PM

[bwelford]

Welcome to the Forums, jen. As Rand says once we know your goals, we'll be better able to give you some ideas.

I just had to say I think your domain is one of the most appropriate I've seen
www.ifish.net
What could be better than that? It oozes fishing, but also points to the network you have now created. Congratulations, that was a brainwave.

[Jen]

Sorry, ranting... but I'm excited.

I have thought about selling and walking, but I'm sure to miss it.

Some folks say that ifish is me, so I couldn't do that without staying on as a Poster child sort of role, going to sports shows, etc, repping the company.... writing articles here and there.

That might not be bad if the right "boss" came around.

I really cannot keep up with all of the work myself.

One serious brush with death has taught me that I'd like to do a little living, myself.

[Jen]

Funny thing... Someone owns ifish.com and really wants to buy mine. They offered good money. They bought their domain before I bought mine by a matter of months.

I found out, after I tried to buy his. He has more capitol then I do, but I have the members and the active site. Interesting mix.

Jen

[Robert_Paulson]

Wow, Jen.

I was looking through the site's stats (which BTW, you may not want to keep them public), and it appears that you've got some great brand identity. Averaging 300,000 unique visits per month, yet hardly anyone uses search engines to find you - they have your site bookmarked. There are lots of webmasters (myself included) that would do almost anything for that kind of scenario.

And my goodness - to be in a position where you can post that you aren't accepting any new advertisers (*drool*) - not many people can do that (we need 57 more advertisers before we'll say that on our forum site!).

It seems you're really in the catbird's seat whatever option you choose.

As I've considered possible exit strategies for the forum I run, I thought one of these options might work well:

1) A company would purchase the site outright for a sum of money. I would turn over the URL, site data and all passwords, and walk away with a check, washing my hands of the site.

2) A company would purchase the site in "land contract" fashion, paying me a set amount for a set number of years, allowing me to continue in my role as forum admin, but only forum admin. All static content, ad sales, etc, would be their job. At the end of the contract term they would own the site 100% and would have the option of keeping me on or letting me go. I like this one because it would allow me to slowly shepherd the community from old owners to new.

Or I could just run it as I've been running it, selling ad space and trying to make site improvements as it appears you've done.

I spent a little time in the medical insurance industry and really didn't like it - it always seems that when things are medically their bleakest, that's when you have to fight the hardest with insurance to get bills paid. So I'm hopeful that this situation will resolve itself with you not having to worry about the cost of medical care.

So considering your current situation, if I were to offer advice, it would be to either let a salesperson sell your ad space for you, or consider one of the two options above. But I wouldn't sell to ifish.com - at least not with what they have online right now.

If you want to get a sense of how much you might charge for advertising, visit the websites of your favorite fishing magazines. They will almost always have an online media kit with a rate sheet. Look at what circulation numbers they have, ad sizes, and rates. Compare that to your site. Even if you charge far less than magazines with similar reach, I would imagine you'd be earning a fair sum of money.

Something else to consider - there are some real web-business sharks out there that might be willing to take on your project on a contingency basis. I would think the demonstrated traffic your site produces would get someone to bite. Just be careful - lots of scammers out there, too. (And so you know where I stand - don't hire me. There are people with far more knowledge and could do much better for you than I could - I'm just excited to see someone with a site with this much potential.)

I've rambled on enough - congrats on building yourself such a big following, and congrats on your future success!

This post has been edited by Robert_Paulson: Dec 19 2005, 01:15 AM

[randfish]

Robert - I agree with a lot of your points; good post.

Jen - I'd think that using Overture's bid tool - you could determine how much folks pay per click to their site and use a PPC or a per impression model, as well. If you do seek someone out to manage your site's ad campaign, do ask around and check their background and references. As Robert notes, it can be very nasty going on the web.

As for your medical situation - I'm very sorry to hear that, but I love what you've been able to accomplish despite that trouble. I think you set a great example that even if life throws you lemons, you can make lemonade - bravo!

My advice would be to form a corporation (c, not s) and put the company profits under the control of the company (remember that under US, corporations are like people - sole legal entities). You retain voting rights and 100% control, but none of the monies go to you until you're ready to collect them. I'd probably use some company funds, however, to seek a bit of legal advice from a business specialist, just so you're 100% sure you're going in the right direction.

[Jen]

Randfish, thank you, and thank you all!

Where do people "pay per click"? Google?

How do they sign up to pay?

I have some customers, (I have helped others do their web sites on occasion. No longer do this) but, who would like to get better listed on search engines. I have no idea anymore how to help them. If anyone knows, I'd love to send them your way.

I'm not so interested in getting ifish better listed, as it seems to do better with word of mouth and the decals folks put on their cars and boats.

But, I'd still like to learn more. Or direct me somewhere on this site, where I could read to help them?

Oh yeah, and why should stats be private? I don't have an active link to stats because some of the domain stuff seems pretty private. Is that why?

I have deleted the above url on your recommendation.

Thank you--

Jen

This post has been edited by Jen: Dec 19 2005, 09:42 AM

[Robert_Paulson]

People would pay you per click. I'm not a big fan of the PPC or impression model; I see the exposure businesses get in forums similar to if not better than magazines, and magazines have a straight price per ad. Just because we can offer PPC doesn't necessarily mean we should. Kind of like a fishing guide having a PPF (pay per fish) model. Get a bad month for fishing and the guide goes broke. Guides charge by the excursion and I like that same model for this. Not to say the other model doesn't work for others - just telling you what I like, and what I feel takes care of my interests.

Re: your rankings in search engines - I would bet that if you spent a little time researching search engine optimization, you could tweak your site and start getting a lot more traffic than you even do now. But I would think you certainly have enough traffic right now to be able to earn a living, provided you get the advertising sold at a reasonable rate (if it hurt the advertisers too badly, they'd just leave - that they squeel means they're still there and still paying - nothing wrong with charging what the market will bear). You might even offer a tiered system where national advertisers would get prime spot and would pay more, but small, local companies could have a space of their own, less visibility, and get charged less (like having a section just for guides to advertise).

Just a thought.

Good luck!

Re: making your stats public - I just don't like the idea of potential competitors knowing who visits, when, why and how they got to my site. Gives them an advantage they don't deserve.

[Jammer]

I'd like to make another suggestion which might be interesting for you. Less to do with advertising but more with building a partnership with a supplier.

The option I am referring to is building an online store and intergrate it with your site. I am sure that there are online fishing materials suppliers that are very interested to make this kind of a deal with you.

Let's say they someone (you or someone else) sets up an E-store. Then the company that you decide to have a partnership with can run this store and take care of the orders, deliveries etc. I haven't seen your stats but someone mentioned 300.000 unique visitors a month. This could be one hell of a deal to any supplier of fishing materials.

In return for this partnership you get part of the profit, a percentage made from every sale.

Why I like this solution
Like this your site remains to be yours and it won't be flooded with advertisements, banners or things like that.
Since you have so many visitors it's probably one of the most profitable solutions.

In return the partner gets a high traffic site with a lot of loyal visitors, this means a whole lot of potential customers. Them paying per sale means they only pay if they make money on it as well (both parties win!).

After you set this deal up it won't cost you any time but it will make you money, and that looks like the ideal situation to me

By the way
Good luck...!

[Jen]

OK, Jammer... Sign me up!

That is a good idea. Why haven't I thought of that?

I have tons of contacts for that, also.

You know, thinking about it... I have tons of single advertisers that might go in on a store to sell all their individual products. All the people I've turned away could put their product on this "new" storefront.

All I'd need is a manager for the storefront.

One of the problems I've run into is that I allow my "sponsors" to give contact info on the forums, which is where they obviously get their best exposure. No one else can do that.

So, I worry about the forums becoming a huge ad. I don't want that. The people are there for the info. They put up with a few ads here and there, but I'd hate it to turn into one big advertisement. Yucko.

So, I'd have to solve that problem, somehow.

Jen

[bwelford]

Jen, what great problems you do have.

As far as limiting the ad space, it would seem to me that price is always a nice "tap" to turn up or down on this. If the price is higher, some people will no longer decide to advertise. So you could decide there are only a limited number of spaces. You then would show only the top bidders.

[Jen]

That's how I do it now.

I allow only a certain number in a certain category. One thing I've always despised is clutter, and my page is getting that way. People wait and get all excited when someone moves on. This doesn't happen very often, though, so mostly... people just wait. I've had people on my waiting list for 5 years and they are still there.

I also charge too little. I've been told that I am selling out by many business people... that I should charge more, because

A. Charging less makes it appear that I lack confidence.

and

B. Businesses are taking advantage of me.

Both are true.

Hey! I read this stuff that you guys write. My code is bad. My design is awful and outdated.
I'm NOT confident.

But, somehow, the people come. They like the homey feel? I don't know! But, they are there.

The community is very dedicated and close. They have parties. We raise money for good charities. We fish together and keep each other safe. We are really pretty tight knit.

And... it's just home.



Jen

This post has been edited by Jen: Dec 19 2005, 10:42 AM

[bwelford]

It seems to me, Jen, you should be running an auction on your ad space. Let everyone compete. Base it say on dollars per area of the ad.

If some of the long term advertisers are upset by the change, then let them know you'll be giving them a "loyalty" boost for 6 months, whereby their bid will be valued at a premium of say 25% versus new bidders.

If you're concerned that you'll make too much money this way, then give a percentage to those charities you are supporting. If you do, then publicise this as well. You could even announce it at the same time as you announce that from now on ad space is open to bids.

The important thing is to keep having fun.

[Robert_Paulson]

It seems to me, Jen, you should be running an auction on your ad space.  Let everyone compete.  Base it say on dollars per area of the ad.

If some of the long term advertisers are upset by the change, then let them know you'll be giving them a "loyalty" boost for 6 months, whereby their bid will be valued at a premium of say 25% versus new bidders.

If you're concerned that you'll make too much money this way, then give a percentage to those charities you are supporting.  If you do, then publicise this as well.  You could even announce it at the same time as you announce that from now on ad space is open to bids.

The important thing is to keep having fun.

There's a great idea! If you feel unsure about what to charge, let the advertisers decide. You define the spaces you have open such that the site isn't cluttered, and let them battle over price. Highest bidder wins, and you won't have any nagging feelings, because they will have decided for themselves what the value of the ad space is.

The idea also addresses the potential hard feelings of loyal advertisers - good stuff.

Best of luck. I'll step away from this thread now and let others chime in - appears to be lots of good ideas here to keep you busy for awhile.

Best of luck to you.

[Jen]

I tried the auction thing once, when I couldn't decide on how much an increase I should go for. It did NOT turn out well.

The people bidding were not internet kind of folks and they thought the idea was really bad. They refused to play along.



I love that idea, and I wanted it to go... but it didn't and it turns out they were my top sponsors that I didn't want to lose, so I dropped and played along.

Maybe for a lesser space on the tier.

Jen

[Jen]

I have a guy willing to help me with business.

He's really wonderful, kind, and (gulp) underservingly free.

However, he dealt with print media. I find that people who haven't dealt with internet communities have a hard time grasping the difference in media.

Is there any information regarding that on the web, or even better, here?

I try to explain it and I can't even get started.

Maybe business is business and I'm all off?

Jen

[Robert_Paulson]

The nice part about the helper you already have, is that you know he's in it for the right reasons. Once the revenues start to flow, it'll behoove you to show your appreciation for him in the form of $.

True, there is a difference in media - but I also have a hard time explaining that difference to potential advertisers. It seems clear in my head, but somehow the data just doesn't make it over to their heads. That he's dealt with media at all is a big step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

From the advertiser's perspective, I think the end game is results - sales of their goods/services. So for that part of things, business is business. If your guy doesn't understand how a forum differs from print media, have him spend some time on your site (or if he doesn't fish, ask him to take part in a forum that caters to an interest of his). Nothing teaches like experience.

But if you have businesses already clamoring for ad space, I think your guy's hurdle of "getting it" may not be as critical as if you were trying to sell your first banner.

No matter what, expect advertisers to get angry. I always get angry when I have to pay more for something. In the b&m biz I own, I get really angry once a month when I have to cut checks to all of my suppliers. Just the nature of spending money you'd rather not part with, I guess. You may see some loyal advertisers leave - know that they were getting a steal for a long time, getting disproportionate exposure for their ad dollars.

I guess I can't help but chime in here - you're in the spot I wish we were in, and are working daily to get there. Please keep us updated with your progress - it'll give me something to shoot for.