Overuse of keywords Options

[kevinsource]

I am new to SEO and after reading some of Jill Whalen's articles I am trying to make the copy of the text on my pages "keyword rich," however, can i over do it? Here is an example of text on my page:

"Alston barstools presents a versatile line of barstools and kitchen chairs. Alston barstools and kitchen chairs are suitable for any occasion. These kitchen chairs and barstools are available in a wide variety of colors. Alston barstools are also available in two different grades of high quality vinyl upholstery."

Am I overusing "barstools" and "kitchen chairs" in this brief description?

Thanks!

[dragonlady7]

It's not so much a question of overdoing it as it is of making the copy difficult to read.
Have you read Karon Thackston's articles? She's the copywriter who works with Jill Whalen. She has a lot of good tips for sneaking keywords in unobtrusively so they don't interfere with the flow of words on the page.
The example you quoted is pretty keyword-heavy, but whether it's too much depends a bit on what else is on the page. It's recommended you have at least 150 words of copy on the page, and the target keyword density is different depending on who you speak to. But with that many words you have more space to play around with the keywords, so they don't have to be quite so... repetitive.

It's certainly possible to overdo it, both from the point of view of the website visitor and from the point of view of the search engine spider. A good rule of thumb is to read the copy out loud and if it sounds really dumb, it's overdone.

[kevinsource]

Thanks for the info!

It's recommended you have at least 150 words of copy on the page

Because these are individual product pages, it is almost impossible for me to include 150-200 words per page. Welcome pages, on the other hand, can afford to contain more text. There are thousands and thousands of individual product pages and creating that much text is near to impossible, at least for me. I feel that information would become redundent and I face the possbility of being penalized for too many pages being nearly identical. My initial idea was to throw in as many keywords as possible on the product pages, with less emphesis of flow, and make welcome pages more visitor and spider friendly....good idea or bad idea??????

Thanks again...i really appreciate any help i can get!!!

[Black_Knight]

You've posted almost 120 words in that last post just to tell us how hard it would be to write 150 words.

It is incredibly easy to write 250 words or more that are specific to a product, and more importantly, you'll get better sales from doing so. Anything I can't immediately see from a picture (including scale, materials, how hard-wearing, textures, etc, etc) that I'd see instantly if the product were actually physically in front of me have to be explained in words.

Any question I have as a shopper will not be asked of you. If it isn't in your text before I ask it, I'll be off to the next site for the answer, not to my email box.

You need the words to answer every question anyone may have. You cannot easily have too much text on a product page. I can skip-read the text if you provide more info than I need, and the details can be placed after the 'buy now' or 'add to cart' link so that I don't have to scroll through it unless I have questions, but I can't read what isn't there.

[K.S. Katz]

If all your barstools were the same, you wouldn't need individual product pages. Saying that, here's some general questions to answer on each product that might help you meet that 150-word count: (gearing this towards barstools)

- What type of barstool is it?
- How tall is the barstool? Is it adjustable?
- What type of wood is the barstool made of?
- What type of material is the seat of the barstool made of?
- What colors does the barstool seat come in?
- What other furniture do you recommend putting with this barstool? (Might even be able to up sale with other products here.)
- What do previous customers say about this barstool? (If you don't have testimonials, start collecting them. After a customer makes a purchase you send them an email in a week or two asking how they liked the product and would they mind if you include the comments on your website.)

These are just some ideas I had off the top of my head but hopefully this will spark some creative inspiration for you.

[scottiecl]

Welcome Kathryn!

Great list!

To the idea of just sticking keywords on the pages because you can't think of anything to write... that's exactly what it will look like you did! I doubt your potential customers will be impressed.

[Black_Knight]

I'd still say that a mere 150 words is too little by half (or maybe just a third). Most engines tend to prefer pages with over 400 words given the choice.

[sheriw]

The problem with the sample you gave isn't the frequent use of barstools, but the poor copy. Also, why did you use "Alston" twice in two sentences? Is this also a keyword?
You wrote:
Alston barstools presents a versatile line of barstools and kitchen chairs. Alston barstools and kitchen chairs are suitable for any occasion. These kitchen chairs and barstools are available in a wide variety of colors. Alston barstools are also available in two different grades of high quality vinyl upholstery."
Your copy sounds like a gunshot presentation of your product, instead of natural copy.
Why not something like: "Barstools and kitchen chairs that will fit any occasion...and in any setting. Alston barstools come in a wide variety of color options to fit perfectly with your decor. These quality barstools come in two different vinyl upholstery grades to let you choose the look you want..."
This sounds better than simply starting each sentence with your keywords, to make sure you fit them in. Try working with the copy some, playing with it, to give it a good flow, THEN look for logical places to use your keywords. I think you'll get better results-and better sales.

[Respree]

Of course, there's no disagreement in the comments made here.

I could be wrong, but I think this thread is veering from the original question.

It seems like you're asking if what you wrote is considered overly optimized and would it be considered borderline stuffing that would result in a decreased ranking (and to disregard readability and the corresponding conversion rates for the moment)? Am I correct?

[dragonlady7]

>the original question

I think the original question was more general than that, and I'm not sure the original poster was enquiring about keyword density or "stuffing". I think it's more appropriate to discuss it in a general manner.
I'm not up on the latest theories about overoptimization, but it seems to me to be more useful to consider it from a more holistic perspective-- the big picture, I mean-- and think of it from all standpoints. Keyword density, readability, and marketing considerations all need to be taken into account simultaneously to produce good website copy.
(p.s.)
Very good suggestions, Sheri.

[Black_Knight]

Naturally, having placed this question in the "Writing Copy and Content for the Web" forum rather than the "Search Engine Optimization" forum will affect the focus of the answers a little - applied semantics were not only invented for search engines.

However, I don't think we've veered in the slightest, just broadened the discussion a little while keeping it firmly on the same line/track.

Most engines tend to prefer pages with over 400 words

That's purely an SEO point.

[kevinsource]

WOW! Thanks very much everyone! I can definetly get some ideas from your posts.

I'm sure I will be back with more questions or to get more ideas.

Thanks again!

[bwelford]

A good rule of thumb is to read the copy out loud and if it sounds really dumb, it's overdone.

I'm getting a bit late into this discussion, but I find that advice very important.

If the piece is a key item, you might even get a friend to read it to you. Then you'll really appreciate how someone else might perceive it.

[scottiecl]

You might get some good ideas from this article by Karon Thackston, on turning features into benefits.

[Black_Knight]

It was a good topic, Kevin, as attested by this thread having been spotlighted by SearchDay today. Well done.

[Respree]

Black_Knight wrote:
"It is incredibly easy to write 250 words or more that are specific to a product, and more importantly, you'll get better sales from doing so."

dragonlady7 wrote:
"<snip>it is almost impossible for me to include 150-200 words per page...There are thousands and thousands of individual product pages and creating that much text is near to impossible<snip>"

I'm afraid I find myself in the same position as you, dragonlady7. While I agree 250 words should be fairly easy for 'a particular product,' what happens if you have thousands of them? Or tens of thousands of them? For me, there are more than 100,000 product pages in my store, which I fear will take the rest of my life to write good copy for (and possibly the next lifetime).

Black_Knight, do you have any suggestions for stores like us that have a large number of products. While I completely agree with you that well-crafted verbiage will go a long way to improve your rankings, I haven't seen any of my competitors doing this, probably due to the same challenges I am facing; the overwhelming number of products.

Any advice?

P.S. (Off topic) Is the quote function on the forum working today? I'm logged in, but don't see that functionality.

[Black_Knight]

It's been a while since anyone mentioned the quote buttons, so it took me a while to unearth the previous discussion, respree. A discussion from July 2003 discusses the removal of the quote buttons, and explains how to create quotes without the buttons using standard BBcode. Should answer all your quote related questions I think.

I had a go at explaining how to create the necessary wordage for a product earlier. For starters, think accessibility, and remember that some users may have images disabled (either for speed on a dial-up, or simply because they prefer it that way). Visually impaired users aren't going to get much benefit from images of your products either, no matter how pretty and illustrative.

Okay, so now you know that providing words to describe the product fully are not only important for spiders. They have many other uses too. If you want specific copywriting tips on this, I think we'd be best forming a 'break-away' discussion in the Writing Copy and Content forum. That way later visitors will find it where expected, rather than tucked away in the programming forum.

I'd be delighted to join such a discussion and hopefully do my bit to contribute to a definitive discussion of writing copy for product pages in large catalog sites.

Off-topic - Incidentally, your second quote isn't from Dragonlady7 (as currently attributed). The quote is from kevinsource.

[bwelford]

In addition, B_K, it may be worth mentioning, since I haven't seen it anywhere else, that if you use the quote as follows:
[quote="ScoobyDoo"] then your quote will appear as
ScoobyDoo wrote rather than Quote.

[Respree]

Thanks Black_Knight.

I guess I'm in too many forums. I could have sworn that quote button was here yesterday.

Sorry about the misquote dragonlady7. I stand corrected. That's why I like the quote buttons... :? , but can understand the reasons for removal.

[Black_Knight]

it may be worth mentioning, since I haven't seen it anywhere else

Good tip.

But it gave away that you hadn't followed the link.