So What Does SEMPO Mean To You? Options

[horsecove]

Thanks for the welcome Ammon and Barry.

I've always liked Cre8asite forums. You have a well informed and friendly community here. Confession time: I've been lurking here for quite a while. :oops:

I'm glad you liked the FAQ. Many of the questions came directly from the ones posed right here at Cre8asite. So, thank you all for asking such excellent questions.

The FAQ was definitely a team effort. Much of the credit goes to SEMPO Webmaster Tom Dahm and our very supportive SEMPO Board and Advisory Board. They made excellent suggestions while we were putting it together. In particular, the feedback we received from Danny Sullivan, Barbara Coll, Jessie Stricchiola, Dana Todd and several others was invaluable. I have to tell you, these guys are fantastic to work with.

We veiw the FAQ (and the whole SEMPO site) as a living creature that will grow over time. So, if you think of other questions which should be included in the FAQ or other resources you think we should include on the site, feel free to ask here or shoot your suggestions over to Barbara or myself.

Thanks again for the kind words about the FAQ. You all were instrumental in making it happen.

Christine

[rustybrick]

Time to bring this post back to the top.

Mike Grehan wrote an article named Who needs SEMPO?.

Pretty shocking claims in that article, some of which go against posts by Ms. Coll in this thread.

[bwelford]

Barry, that's an excellent article, with some very challenging thoughts for SEMPO within it. Interestingly it comes out as the interesting discussion on SEM reputation at the Search Engine Watch Forum seems to be going round in never-ending circles. Stephen Hawking now acknowledges that even black holes eventually beam out information. So hopefully out of all this applied brain-power some new, strong initiative will develop.

[rcjordan]

I really only want to know the answer to the $78,000 question, which seems to have been answered in posts above, but upon closer reading it might have been, ummm, politely sidestepped. So, I'll be blunt...

Does Barbara Coll receive the $1500 (in any form of payment/reimbursement plan) Mike says.?

[peter_d]

Very interesting article. I've linked to it today.

I think the momentum is building for a representitive body. It remains to be seen if SEMPO is that organisation. As Mike says, any organisation must provide bottom-line benefit to the membership and the members must vote the board in.

[bragadocchio]

I don't need SEMPO.

I don't need an industry association or organization that actively promotes my business activities on the web.

I may practice some SEO or SEM, but I'm not a professional provider of those services like many of you are.

It's probably to my benefit to see you all struggle, and not band together into an industry group that wields some power and influence because of your unity.

It's possible that you could all create a group that kept track of laws and regulations involving the internet, and had a say in how search engines were regulated by governments, and how marketing and advertising, and communications on the web were governed by the FTC and the FCC and the European Union, and other agencies. One united voice can often be heard where many small voices are ignored.

There are a lot of trade groups that you all could join, or start a branch of. I could see the Direct Marketer's Association being listened to on matters involving the web. I know they've participated in shaping the CAN-SPAN Act. I don't know if they got what they wanted out of that, but they were at least listened to. By lots of people, and by the media.

Maybe as someone who conducts web promotion in house, I would join an industry group that focuses upon SEO or SEM. But it would depend on a lot of factors. That group would need to show me a few things.

[list]I would want to see a clear statement of whom the members of the organization should be.

[*]I would want to know what benefits there might be for me in membership.

[*]It would discourage me to see different prices for different levels of membership, with a "golden circle" that got preferential placement on the organization's web site.

[*]I would want to see clear lines of communication developed, with people knowing the aims of the organization, and their efforts.

[*]I would want to know what the methods for choosing leadership were, and would probably want those methods to be democratic, based upon some type of voting. Maybe an election of directors who would appoint executive officers.

[*]I would want to be able to see bylaws for the organization, and I would want to see them online, available to the public to view.

[*]I would want the organization to come up with some guidelines of ethical conduct and practice, developed with the efforts of disinterested third parties from academia and the business world (professors and professionals).

[*]I understand that Nonprofit doesn't mean that people work for free, and I would want fair compensation to be paid to the people working for the organization, and the measure of fair would probably be related to the amount of pay that people performing similar functions in other nonprofits are getting paid. [list]
I don't know if these are issues that are important to others, but they seem to be a good starting point.

Here's a link to an article I found on starting a trade association that makes some great points:

Creating a New Trade Association

[Steve_Sardell]

Bill, you are not a lone ranger. Your post of wants is well thought, and is part of why, IMHO, SEMPO is doomed. From the start it has been my impression their agenda was to benefit the few with too much cloaked in secrecy. When all comes to light, we may find the group has done more harm to our industries than good. I for one am glad the check was never mailed.

[NFFC_]

>When all comes to light, we may find the group has done more harm to our industries than good

Couldn't agree more.

I think our US friends would say, stick a fork in it, it's done.

[projectphp]

That group would need to show me a few things...
I would want to be able to see bylaws for the organization, and I would want to see them online, available to the public to view..

Great post Bill! Unfortunately there is no "we are not worthy" emoticon, or I would use it right now. As always, you somehow manage to cut through the BS and say succinctly in one post what others have tried to say in hundreds!! Those points are spot on, and I think incorporated them into SEMPO's thinking would be very productive indeed!

For my $0.02, I truly feel for the people that started SEMPO. They were on an absolute hiding to nothing, no matter what they did. Comments like

When all comes to light, we may find the group has done more harm to our industries than good

are unfair and, unfortunately, were inevitable.

But the thing is, SEMPO's founders got it started, got it up and running and all in the face of massive hurdles, and massive negative press from the very people they aim to represent. Many of whom (the dissenters) have access to greater publishing resources, in virtually real time, than just about any other group on the planet. How many forums, blogs and sites are their on the internet that report and discuss this sort of stuff?

IMHO, no organisation gets it 100% right first go. Having conceeded that, where SEMPO goes from here will be vital. The stands they make from here on in will define what role, if any, they play in the coming years, and where and how they position themselves, in terms of what exactly the education and promotion of SEM takes, will define how much benefit potential members see in joining.

I terms of member numbers, a broader advertising campaign, aimed at every demographic of potential SEM customer would go a long way to achieving such a goal.

I truly do wish SEMPO luck, now more than ever, and I hope something positive comes from it all.

[NFFC_]

>from the very people they aim to represent.

They have done a great job with respect to the people they aim to represent.

[bragadocchio]

Hi NFFC_

It's good to have you join us here.

SEMPO is in charge of their own destiny at this point. I can't tell if they will adopt the transparency, democracy, and accountability that would make them an organization that people will join willingly. I'm not sure they know who they represent, exactly. That may be part of the problem.

Thanks, projectphp

I'd like to see something positive arise from the beginnings of SEMPO. I think the people involved in it are capable of it.

Will they open communications? Or will they go on as they have? I don't see a rush of people looking to sign up, excited about what they could accomplish together.

It disturbed me a little, earlier in this thread, months back, when I had asked about making the bylaws of the organization available to everyone, and was told that they could be seen at SEMPO headquarters during normal business hours. I was hoping for a constitution-like document that people could rally around, and get excited about.

The paper at the link I pointed to in my last post describes a document like that.

[peter_d]

Adopt the transparency, democracy, and accountability

Good posts, Bill.

That, in a nutshell, is what must happen. Anything less will not do.

[NFFC_]

Thanks for the welcome bragadocchio.

>I'm not sure they know who they represent, exactly.

We will have to agree to differ, they know exactly who they represent, it ain't me or you BTW ;)

[rustybrick]

I agree its a critical time now and the SEMPO meeting next week at SES San Jose will better addresses these issues.

To clarify a few things: They have released a Profit and Loss statement for April 2003 through March 2004, which is available to all members. Its not too detailed but gives you an idea of whats going on.

They also said in this post that the members will be electing a new board by vote sometime in 2004.

Its not enough - but is that because this is the first organization in this industry? Maybe they need to hire someone with real experience in running a non-profit organization like AMA.

[alpine]

I visited the meeting at SES in London, partly because of the tacit support given by people like Brett Tabke and Danny Sullivan.

I left unimpressed at the marketing and organisation, which would be bad enough for a group of widget managers, but was unforgiveable for a group which claims to represent marketing professionals.

I would focus on Mike Grehan's comments about Europe (which are being partially lost in the discussion about finances) as being right on target.

My perception stays alongside that of NFFC_ (nice to see you again)...

We will have to agree to differ, they know exactly who they represent, it ain't me or you...

[bragadocchio]

Barry,

I'm not sure that you could say that this is the first organization like this in this industry. Maybe it's safer to just say that it's the latest.


It may just be to their benefit to hire someone with some actual experience running a nonprofit.

Using the SES as a place to discuss this is a good idea. Using the SES meetings as the sole place to spread ideas and only sharing information with present members is no way to get new members. The world wide web can reach a heck of a lot of people. It's the appropriate venue for discussion, and not the hallway after an SES presentation.

[bwelford]

That link, Creating a New Trade Association, that you posted, Bill, was excellent. I was almost tempted to quote in this Forum some of the most relevant sections, since they are so apt and to the point in this discussion.

Then I began to wonder whether a Trade Association is really needed. A useful link might have been to the entry for Trade Association in Wikipedia. As I scanned that topic, a thought struck me. A good Forum such as we have here at Cre8asite can fulfill many of the needs that would be served by such a Trade Association.

Indeed the only item that is missing is on setting standards or defining a Code of Practices. Certainly we could try to do that. However the sticking point for many organizations on such Codes is whether you put teeth in that crocodile. Some say without the possibility of denying membership to non-conformers the exercise is useless.

In practice, the issue is very complex. Ultimately it's 'Let the Buyer Beware'. I don't think this industry is any more subject to malpractices than industries with Codes such as doctors, lawyers, accountants or even, let me say it, veterinarians. Most people know who are the sheep and who are the goats. If the search engines, who are the key players here, will not be more forthcoming in shining a light on this subject, why should anyone else try. The search engines have all the data. The rest of us can only guess what is really going on.

[DianeV]

> Most people know who are the sheep and who are the goats.

Except, perhaps, some of their clients. Even among sheep and goats, it can't be definitively argued that all know their stuff within the parameters they've chosen.

The "problem" here is, to my view, not just that search engines are not more forthcoming, but more directly that they allow pages that violate their own guidelines, posted or not. If search engines were to delist pages and sites that violate their guidelines, there would be no argument.

The fact that they don't leads to all kinds of arguments in forums, the presumption that included pages don't violate SE guidelines, and much confusion amongst clients and prospective clients. It's difficult to argue to a client that one technique or another is risky if the client continues to see it in the SERPs. Of course, once the pages, or sites, are removed, then the argument is validated. But that takes time.

As does real optimization and website building.

[rustybrick]

Bill, your right, I should have worded my post differently (maybe "first REAL organization") because none other really took off as well (or as poorly).

Anyway, I would love to see an official response to all of this by SEMPO. This just sends us back to the original question: "So What Does SEMPO Mean To You?"

[Brad]

I don't need SEMPO.

I don't need an industry association or organization that actively promotes my business activities on the web.

I may practice some SEO or SEM, but I'm not a professional provider of those services like many of you are.

I am pretty much in the same boat as Bill.

As an organization started by marketing professionals I still think their goals and purpose and market are pretty unclear. Reminds me of the IBM Warp (OS2) commercials a few years back I saw those for months and was never sure what the heck 'Warp' was other than Nuns liked it. If IBM couldn't tell me what it was why buy it? :shock: The same thing holds true for SEMPO - clear unambiguous message and purpose.

Elections: I can understand starting with an appointed board, but you really need to add accountability to the membership who are paying the freight.

Decisions need to be communicated clearly to the members: decisions to pay salaries should never have been a surprise to the members.

As for Mike Grehan's other points about individuals and accrediting SEO's, I think they have a lot of merit but I suspect they are better served by a different organization that SEMPO. I think Grehan is right 80% of shops are one or two man shows and SEMPO seems more about corporations and big players.