Google Slams Seo And Web Designers From Local Serps Options

[cre8pc]

As if Google isn't already infuriating us, here's their latest bit of "no evil":

Where Did SEO's Go

Google Removes SEOs

Google has decided to intentionally not show a local pack for queries that are related to SEO or web design

[AbleReach]

There are so-called marketers who generate bazillions of sites for [local area]+[keyword] and then dynamically fill them with almost identical content, via feeds and includes that plunk in appropriate-sounding "local" words. Those sorts of sites should be banned, as well as the "SEO" goofballs who create them, IMHO.

Reputable marketers - real marketers - have better things to do. Google should know that. Shame on Google for painting all web design and SEO people with the same brush.

[EGOL]

Do you really think that this is a deliberate discrimination?

I can't imagine Google discriminating against web designers.

Perhaps the nature of their business makes many of them more "global" than "local"... and thus they have been excluded for that reason or simply because of a glitch.

OR....

Maybe google prefers to see them compete in the organic listings because that is how information is found. Designer or SEOs who can not rank their sites for their hometown name in the organic listings are not producing a product that is helpful to the searcher or giving a return to their clients.

I think that there is some reason other than "evil".

This post has been edited by EGOL: Dec 31 2009, 04:12 PM

[Michael_Martinez]

I don't much feel like Google bashing today but there are some other keywords the SEO community could use to continue to get those special little local displays.

Since Googlers read this forum, I'll have to ask you to be creative in your query testing.

[SEOigloo]

I think this is the best discussion of this issue happening right now on the web. There is some real disdain being felt right now for the screwy way in which Google has responded to questions about why they made this change. Google has a way of compounding existent frustrations caused by poor communication by then giving conflicting responses to issues like these. I think this issue will continue to get major coverage until we get a straight answer out of Google about why they've chosen to do this.

[earlpearl]

I'm quite convinced the Google "response" was misdirection. Oh hell. Its a lie.

I suspect there is a different underlying problem within either the data set that relates to SEO, web designers, advertising agencies, etc.

Up until a few months ago a 7pac (it was probably a 10pac then) for the search phrase <city name> advertising agencies ie Chicago advertising agencies, Philadelphia advertising agencies etc. turned up the screwiest results.

The 7pac/ 10pac turned up Universities, museums, sports teams etc. Then rolling into the summer the 7pac 10pac results were more reflective of actual local advertising agencies. (I'm sorry I don't have a screensave handy--there have to be some around.)

This past fall, Google adjusted the algo that moved information from G maps into the 7pac; 10pac etc. It did so because way too many maps in universal search were turning up OneMaps for phrases, not 7 pacs.

Following that the screwy results for phrases such as Dallas Advertising Agencies started to reappear. (museums, universities, sports teams, etc. --Not the local office for a business such as J Walter Thompson)

I suspect the change that was made to eliminate excessive oneboxes had unintended consequences of resurrecting whatever problem was causing the problems with the <city name> advertising agencies search.

I think the heavyweight programmers might have insights into this. Is it possible that Google has taken its massive amts of data on businesses ie millions of them and broken them into groups for speed of computation?

In any case, I suspect they like the change with fewer oneboxes. That is far more accurate. On the other hand, since the bad info on <city name> advertising agencies was showing up I suspect they created a problem in that category. I think seo, web designers, etc. might be in the same massive category as advertising agencies. I think they took every element in the category down....and web developers, seo's etc. quite naturally caught it and have been vocal about it.

I'm not sure about all this, but the change in oneboxes and reoccurance of museums, hotels, etc showing up for advertising agencies occurred simultaneously.

Google Maps algo's are like google.com was, say five years ago. It needs a lot of work. Moreover moving data from maps.google.com into a onebox; 7pac etc. for universal search turns up lots of problems.

Similarly, while less frequent now than earlier, wierd data appears in Plusboxes in google.com serps. This used to happen with far greater frequency than in the past. It still occurs.

Again its a problem connected with identifying data from maps.google.com and then moving it into google.com.

Lots of work remains to be done IMHO.

John Mu: Any comments for the rest of us?

In any case, the google reaction was weak. Something is going on. They aren't being straight. They basically have very very weak answers in google maps. It has a myriad of problems that show up. The Google communications are typically miserable. They don't want to give customer service. They want to solve things algorithemically.....and they dance around communicating.

Oh last thing...I agree with Miriam. Her link to Mike Blumenthals blog is an excellent source. It attracts lots of knowledgable commentary from people who deal with local on a regular basis.

This post has been edited by earlpearl: Jan 1 2010, 05:56 PM

[SEOigloo]

EarlPearl,
What a great recap of the onebox/10pac/7pac situation. Impressive! And this is very interesting:]

I suspect the change that was made to eliminate excessive oneboxes had unintended consequences of resurrecting whatever problem was causing the problems with the <city name> advertising agencies search.

I'm so curious to know if your suspicions are right on this.

I fully agree with your sentiments that Google has goofed here. I don't believe that the chubby lady has yet had her aria on this one. I just finished writing a piece saying exactly this as SEG (which for some reason is having a publishing glitch at the moment), but the bottom line is that I think this change is a mistake on Google's part and we'll be seeing more changes on this issue.

[earlpearl]

Miriam:

It is my suspiceon Miriam. Nothing more.

I do know the wierd results with the search phrase <city name> advertising agencies returned after google "rolled back" the algo element that was creating oneboxes. The rollback had a lot of success, btw. There was a large thread in google groups for maps with lots of examples where a search phrase turned up an unintended onebox. After the rollback (it took them about 6 weeks from announcement to action) the results that were inappropriate were largely changed. That was a level of success.

BUT....the wierd results returned for the <city name> advertising agencies returned then. (btw 7 pacs for the phrase <city name> advertising agency was always fine).

From speaking w/ one programmer its possible that in order to accomodate Humongous amts of data Google has subdivided sets of data for faster processing. It could be the data set that includes seo's, web designers, advertising agencies, etc. needs work.

[earlpearl]

Currently the results within Maps.google.com for <city name> advertising agencies, (the plural form) is askew.

No wonder Google.com doesn't want to show this in the 7pac where it would get 50-80 times the exposure.

I just checked within maps.google.com for the search baltimore advertising agencies and the search lists the following entities in order:

1. Baltimore Symphony Orchestra (orchestra? )
2. Johns Hopkins University Press (university publishing)
3. Baltimore Gas and Electric Co. (utility)
4. Baltimore Ravens (football team)
5. Kennedy Krieger Institute (I dunno ? )
6. WJZ TV (TV station)
7. Towsontown Center (shopping mall....my goodness)
8. Ikea Baltimore Md ( big store selling popular low priced furniture)
9. Baltimore Sun Classified Advertising (dying section of newspaper because of craigslist )
10. Goucher College (college)

Maybe the algo thinks that when searchers are inputting <city name> advertising agencies....that searchers really want the large local clients of advertising agencies. I dunno

Anyways there is something wrong in the presentation of the data. I have this feeling that this is somehow connected to google removing 7 pacs for phrases like <city name> webmaster, or SEO.

[dazzlindonna]

Ok, if your theory is correct, then one of two things should be true (i think):

1) Doing a similar search for <city name> webmaster, or SEO within Maps.google.com should turn up equally dismal results

or

2) If, as you suggest, advertising agencies are lumped into a larger container that holds webmaster and seo queries as well, then even if webmaster and seo queries return good results, the fact that they are all in the same bucket requires throwing all the babies (webmaster and seo queries) out with the advertising bathwater - collateral damage, so to speak.

But if 2) is correct, then why wouldn't Google simply remove the advertising agency queries from the bucket and place them into their own faulty bucket?

[earlpearl]

Cripes Donna. Don't make me think too hard.

Your #2 idea sounds good to me. Seriously this is where the quality programmers might help. My understanding of this is that Google took tons of data associated with businesses and put them in categories and subgroups to provide for faster computations. (heck they come up w/ good or bad results fast. )

Now it might be that all the marketing groups in English speaking nations were grouped together. (I reference this because as Mike Blumenthal pointed out, the phrases Hong Kong webmaster or Moscow SEO are turning up 7 pacs.

I don't have the answers to your questions. Its just my theory. BTW: The wierd results for 7pac/10pacs for <city name>advertising agencies (only the plurals) have been around for a while. They were always of the ilk for the current list for Baltimore.

Then this past late Spring/Summer they started getting better with more logical businesses for various searches in various cities. Not perfect...just better.

Then Google made this change where they impacted the weight of the algo that generates onemaps or 7pacs. Far more 7pacs were appropriately showing than before.

Then the advertising agencies data turned wierd again. Then Google decided to kick SEO's and web designers out of 7pacs.

Donna: Remember when you started that thread here about the very wierd coincidence of data relative to some of your sites or a different thread....and someone referenced "smoking wierd strong stuff"

Maybe I got a hold of that "stuff"

[dazzlindonna]

LOL, no comment.

[earlpearl]

Donna:

I'll try and be more serious.

As to your first point, the data in google maps for webmaster or SEO seems to be okay. If the idea I broached has any validity at all...I'd venture to say the problems are not everywhere...they are in a few areas.

I frankly don't know enough (c'mon) anything about computing. I'd just venture to guess the following:

If there are large packs of data broken up into subgroups...such as marketing associated phrases in English speaking countries...there are problem areas in some phrases and not in others.

The advertising agencies <city name> is one where I've seen the problem. Maybe there are other wierd examples. I haven't seen any.

People should try searches.

BTW: If you do a search in google.com for advertising agencies IN Baltimore the 7pac shows with the wierd results.

It doesn't show if you search for the singular. If you search for advertising agency in Baltimore the 7pac shows what seem to be appropriate responses.

It seems that the move from singular to plural is the problem and/or the move from singular spelled one way....agency to plural with a more complex plural change....not y's but ies is where the problem lies.

I'm just referencing that by observation...not by knowledge about computation or programming.


If the issue has to do with the change from singular to plural then possibly its not that easy as to removing items into a new bucket...but could have to do with more advanced programming issues.

Again that is out of my league.

In any case, I bring this up because the reappearance of the wierd results for advertising agencies coincided with the decision by google to stop showing 7pacs for <city name> webmaster, web designer, seo, etc.

I'm guessing that there is a tie in.

Finally as to Google's response. What a bunch of bs. I have several businesses that sell services and products in local markets. I've been following these phrases for years. We get contacts /conversions for these phrases. None of the phrases are for webmaster, SEO, web designer, etc.

By far though the volume of searches that represent <service><city name> or alternatively <city name> <service> are far more voluminous than the volume of searches that represent <service> in city. We get both kinds of responses. The user/searcher intent is the same.

The Google response was BS IMHO.

[earlpearl]

Screen shot of query advertising agencies in NYC

Really wierd results: ie Macy's, Strand Book Store, Hotels, etc.

If you use the Google Maps tab, the order of "advertising agencies" is different than that in the 7pac but the results are similarly wierd.

I don't why these bad results reappeared, but they did after Google "dialed back" the impact of oneboxes.

[bwelford]

This is all fascinating stuff, earlpearl. I think it points out the extreme difficulty of using algorithms alone to identify locations. My mental image of Google on this is like that old game of bobbing for apples. You had to pick up an apple floating in a barrel of water with your teeth and without using your hands. Almost impossible.

I believe you have to get humans involved. However even doing your best with the Local Business Center approach may still mean that your location is not correctly identified. It all gets mixed up with reviews and backlinks.

The quickest way for Google to get it right would be for them to have a process whereby you can claim a particular web page as the definitive identifier of your business and location for the purposes of Google Maps and Local Search. They could have a particular website, which would be a directory of all such locations, where you can confirm that the web page they have as the authoritative confirmation of your location is indeed what you believe is the most appropriate. There is no easy way to do that at the moment.

[glyn]

Hello everyone on the 2010 side of thing.

Based on a) how lousy Local Business can be at showing listings and matching them well with the proper data, how easy it is to skew listings in Local Business c) how easy it would be to hijack listings in the existing database. I really would give this little coverage, as you can't narrow down the criteria effectively. I've just done some global searches in English speaking countries outside the US and there's data being shown for SEO companies.

At the end of the day Google wants to deliver a great search experience and where possible channel queries through paid models of advertising or keep people at near to a google.com domain as possible. That's my visual map. Will steps be taken to protect this...for sure. Are they already...yes.

I've seen some good stuff from Google and evidecnce of some really dodgy stuff from Google but without actually working inside the offices it's conjecture, and frankly I can understand it.

So, this is going to be the year I wholeheartedly ignore Google, their self-contradictory guidelines, their publicity rants, their cra*** blog and their PRguff.

Google's looking beyond search. It's gonna be a year of tech convergence. Who wants to sit behind a computer to find stuff anymore anyway after a hard days work?

It's gonna be a great year don't you think?

[bwelford]

I think we're coming from a very similar viewpoint, Glyn.

For me the main game in the future will be cloud computing with the majority using a smart device or a netbook as the simplest of interface devices. That's where Google is putting its efforts and Microsoft just can't turn their ship around fast enough.

[earlpearl]

With Google pulling 7 pacs for local webmasters, seo, web marketing, advertising agencies etc.....local optimization for those firms is currently a function of google.com serps and ppc. Its back to old school, for at least the time being. Maps may be showing for web marketing in<city name> but my experience suggests that is a search phrase that pales in comparison to the searches for <service> <city name> or <city name> <service>

As to Glyn's comments about looking at 2010. I stink at predictions, but here is one. Google is an incredible monopoly with regard to search. It really rears its head with regard to local search. Businesses often face significant make or break situations dependant on Maps. Its very dominant for certain industries.

More focus will fall on Google's algo with regard to Maps. On the sideline Bing/Microsoft will be quietly knowledgably watching. When the Bing/Yahoo merger approaches there will be issues about monopoly/market domination.

Microsoft's attorneys have decades of dealing with issues about market domination and monopoly. They will unload on Google in a fierce and amazing way unveiling Google's domination of search. I think there will be fireworks.

A lot of attorney's will earn a lot of money in this battle.

[earlpearl]

A while ago I had suggested that the removal of 7pac Maps for SEO's, web designers, etc topics from local search for the most direct search terms ie <city name> web designer might have been connected to a terrible data set/presentation within Google Maps.

The crazy data set can be found by searching for advertising agencies <city name> or <city name> advertising agencies. (plural not singular) Google had removed 7 pacs for that phrase.

I see the 7pac maps back up now for most cities and the data is still whacko.

Gotta dump/retract my idea.....that somehow this wierd data (and google wanting to hide it) had a connection with the disappearance of google maps for web designers, etc.

Google is showing 7 pacs for this wierd representation....BUT you still can't find a local web designer in a maps 7 pac.

You would think that the advertising agencies would be going bananas and bombarding Google with all kinds of invective.....after all a local searcher in any city (US) that might want to find a good firm for creating and placing ads instead finds universities, stores, government buildings, hotels, sports teams, etc.

BUT== It appears that the advertising agencies don't know anything about Google Maps and local google.

I searched on Chicago advertising agency (the singular doesn't turn up the wierd results.)

I looked at the maps records (places page) for the top 7 results....all real advertising agencies.

Not one of them (I assume they are all big firms) has claimed their local listing. Not one.

Not one of the firms has addressed categories, affected its name, added details, written about itself specifically for the maps record.

Of interest, since none of the maps record information has been adjusted by the firms....the category description in each one is very simple......"advertising agency"....

The whole phenomena is pretty wierd IMHO.

OTOH, a warning to small businesses all around the country. If you need web assistance with your site, and especially if you are a business that is either local or regional.

DANGER!!!! DANGER!!!!! Do NOT get help from big city advertising agencies (especially the ones in Chicago) . They don't know anything about google maps.

Get help from Miriam, or folks like her. They know what they are doing.

[SEOigloo]

Thanks, Dave,

I must concur, from my albeit limited experience with ad agencies; what I have experienced first-hand is that they are not the folks to go to for web-based promotion. One built one of the worst websites I've ever seen for the most insane amount of money I've ever heard of. Another begged us to give up all our other obligations to help them promote their clients on the web, wrote us a bad check, defaulted on their contract with us and then sent us the most ridiculously rude email about life being tough, a list of their personal problems, a plea about the economy...unprofessional nonsense. We could have taken them to court but realized we just wanted to get as far away from their crazy behavior as possible. Lessons learned.

This post has been edited by SEOigloo: Jan 25 2010, 04:47 PM