35 replies to this topic

[Marie]

Hi,

I have a question concerning linking strategies. My company has several pages and only few of them are set for outgoing links. However, I am collecting links even to these pages. But since I cannot reciprocate, I have to offer links from the sites that have link pages. So that I have on one page piling up links that don't link back to the web page and the PR is lowered. I actually dropped from 5 to 4 in the last dance. Is there a way how to avoid this?

Thanks

Marie

[Grumpus]

It's tough to say exactly what to do at this point since the EternaDance is still less than halfway through. You might just find that after it all settles down that you didn't lose any PR at all. Then again, you might have.

Now, once the dance settles and everything is running normally, you might be a PR4 but it doesn't mean that your linking strategy is the cause of it. (Though it very well may be). PR isn't an absolute number, it's rather akin to being graded on a curve. So, if you are a low 5 this month, it's quite normal to be a high 4 next month (you can't tell if you are high or low, just the number you've been given that month). The fun thing here is that you'll really see no difference in your traffic levels - you'll still see roughly the same number of referals because of the curve factor, itself.

I wouldn't worry about this at all. My movie site goes back and forth between 5 and 6 all the time and the traffic is always constant from month to month (figuring in seasonal variations, of course). If it suddenly drops 2 points, then it's time to question what you're doing.

G.

[Marie]

Hi Grumpus,

thanks for your reply. I was just wondering since none of my bosses were alarmed... Although, this job is really a mystery to me. So many things you have to be cautious about when they are hardly clearly defined!

For example - recirpocal links. Are they more worthy than non-reciprocal?

And my eternal question WHAT A .... IS THE BAD NEIGHBORHOOD!!

I mean I already got couple answers but ... I still can't say what it is and I decided on this really randomly.

Have a nice day,

Marie

[Black_Knight]

my eternal question WHAT A .... IS THE BAD NEIGHBORHOOD!!

Essentially, a bad neighbourhood is whatever Google decides to label as one. It is almost always done where Google have determined that you are trying to manipulate PageRank. That means if you are swapping links in the hopes of gaining PR rather than solely because those links are for your users, you're risking becoming a 'bad neighbourhood'.

The term itself is indicative of what its all about. Sites that are linked to others in a bad way (from Google's perspective).

The advice is simple: Never add a link just because you want one back. Only add links that you want your visitors to use. That's what links are for, after all, and anything else Google tends to regard as misuse.

Here's a couple of the many prior discussions that may help:

The PR0 Algo Hypothesis
http://www.cre8asite...?showtopic=1283

Google being unscrupulous?
http://www.cre8asite...p?showtopic=219

[Marie]

How true and nice what you are saying! However, the possition - or better my job is doing exactly what Google disregards. My bosses want it so. I look for content relevant pages with a good PR and try to get links to increase our PR. Generally speaking, we are a bad neighborhood. Or at least bad guys and a girl.

Now that you put it like this, I guess I should worry less about these things. Until my bosses change their policy I doubt I will be able to be doing a really good and meaningful job. The main problem I had was the tension between the advice of my bosses what I should not do - when in fact, to do my job, I have to be going against these rules ...

Thank you so much for the advice. One day, when I have MY web page, I will be doing it right : )

Have a nice day,

Marie

[Marie]

Especially when I see so many pages that have no link pages and page rank 8! I am not sure how these pages get their PR but I guess it must be good content and user orientedness...

Marie

[DianeV]

Yes, good content for users that people value enough to link to it. I've checked sites that we built for clients years later, only to find that they had zillions of links that we did not request (and neither did the client). The thing in common across these sites is that they either were rather outstanding in their fields and/or had content that people valued.

[Black_Knight]

Okay, lets try to nail down exactly what a linking strategy should be, how to devise, and how to implement one.

The first thing to realise is that gaining links to your site is a Marketing Objective. Capital M and O. It needs to be approached like other marketing objectives.

To get sales to your site, you design a site that attracts sales. You don't send out emails to other companies saying that if you'll buy from them if they'll buy from you. So why do webmasters send out reciprocal linking requests? Simple, because its less work, and used to be an easy way to cheat the system.

However, times have changed, and if you think about it, your company may not want to be associated with 'cheats' and corner-cutting publicly anyway.

So lets look at how to approach it like the marketing objective it is today. You make it a part of the design. You build link-attracting content, and link-helping features right into the website.

If you want links, make something that people will want to link to. Think 'Viral Marketing' - something people will want to tell others about, some through links, but an unseen majority will do so by passing the URL to family and friends via email and chat.

The same content that acquires 4 inbound links on its own merit, will also inspire a hundred bookmarks and 40 mentions in viral marketing. Reciprocal linking doesn't carry those side-benefits, and I can tell you that the side benefits are sometimes worth a lot more than the links.

There is still a place for reciprocal linking - but not under that name, which has become too closely associated with spam. Look for business partnerships with other websites that are useful to your own customers, and whose customers are useful to you. Look for compatible but not competing partners, then form a partnership where you link to each other actively, mutual promotion, not tucked away in a links directory, but right there in your content - because you have a partner you're proud to be associated with, and who is proud to be associated with you.

You can get links in return for things other than links too. Giving testimonials, or articles, to other sites will almost always earn you a link in return. More importantly, those links will usually be far more valuable than ones crammed into a links page no one wants to visit on some other site that also links to at least 6 of your competitors.

Basically, reciprocal linking (as commonly applied) is the tactic of the amatuer. You 'buy' links at the expense of similarly boosting the site that will link to many of your competitors. As your own PageRank increases (if you are lucky) so does that of the site linking to you, and so does that of all the other sites they link to, and you already know they are happy to link to sites in your market - your competitors.

Partnership building requires more investment of trust, and so has a higher barrier to competition - allowing you to get an edge over your competitors.

Building link-inspiring content attracts links automatically, and in greater numbers, and better yet, has side-benefits in terms of other aspects of viral marketing.

Creating articles not only gets you links, but establishes credibility and deeper interest too. Employing a writer to create a dozen articles may actually be cheaper than paying someone to spend weeks on a reciprocal linking campaign, and doesn't carry any of the risks to PR, nor does it require out-bound links, thus helping keep all the increased PR benefit within your own site, not leaking out to your competition.

Hope that helps readers get some ideas going.

[size=9][Edited to correct typos - BK]

[Aaron]

Ammon - very good!

The part about hiring a writer to create articles is exactly what I have proposed with a client and I think they're keen on the idea thus far.

One question... speaking of writers. Who here knows of decent writers (or where I can find some) that doesn't cost an absolute fortune?

I'm often skeptical to seek out new writers via search engines, especially for web writing (seo) work when they haven't a clue.

In Canada there doesn't seem to be much call for this and if there is my client are getting raked over the coals on pricing...some that I have worked with are upwards of $400/page

Again, good post Ammon.

Aaron

[wanderer]

I can recommend an excellent writer/editor whose rates are very reasonable. She did a considerable amount of work for the Canadian government's Virtual Gramaphone project.

Contact info:

M.D. Noel
Ibis Consulting
mdn@achilles.net

Good luck!

[wanderer]

Ammon - question

I have some clients whose sites/products do not really lend themselves to this kind of marketing. I am finding it a real challenge to figure out how to generate "content" for them.

For instance, slippers (unique slippers, but slippers nonetheless). What kind of "I want to link to that" content can be created about slippers?

When you refer to testimonials and articles do you mean same about their site/product or your own? If theirs, how does that result in a link to you? If your own, how do you find sites that would be interested in what amounts to a sales pitch for your product? If the article is actually supposed to be only topical and not product specific, how does that promote a link to the product site?

I can see how this approach would be very workable when dealing with a product about which information abounds and in which people are interested. But what do you do when the product, by its very nature, engenders little or no information.

I've been wrestling with this for awhile. Suggestions? Please ...

[Ron Carnell]

At the risk of sounding simple, I think the best place to find good writers at less than professional rates would be at communities specifically devoted to writing. Of course, that's probably not a totally unbiased opinion, since I happen to run one.

Seriously, I would be the first to admit that ninety percent of the people at my site are, at best, fledgling writers with far more dreams than experience or ability. They would not be suitable candidates. But that still leaves about ten percent of several thousand, who have often spent years honing their skills to match their desires. These are people who write because they truly love it and aren't necessarily looking to get rich. Many are professionals, including a judge in Colorado, a teacher living on Cape Code, a business owner in London, Ontario, and a psychiatrist in New York City. Did I mention the sheep farmer in the Netherlands?

Heck, during the past four years, these people have very gladly provided me with about (just checked) 148,000 pages of content. They also write my newsletters. In return, I offer them a substantial readership (over a million uniques a month), and several have been approached by book publishers (like the Chicken Soup people) because of their exposure. They are talented, prolific, dedicated to their craft, and I suspect many would welcome the opportunity to make a few bucks doing what they will otherwise continue to do for free any way.

And mine is just one of many sites devoted to writing. On the Internet, finding good writers at reasonable rates should be easy. All you have to do is look, find someone you like, and then ask them.

[Black_Knight]

For instance, slippers (unique slippers, but slippers nonetheless). What kind of "I want to link to that" content can be created about slippers?

All kinds, depending on how creative and clever you want to be...

example 1:
A flash game, where you have to guide the dog to find the slippers - done with cutesy graphics and some visual jokes this would probably gain a huge amount of popularity as a 'latest craze' thing if done right.

example 2:
A jokey page on the general image of slippers - we all love the comfort of a good pair of slippers (especially in the colder months) and yet its like familiarity breeds contempt.

Variant 1 - Add some silly images of how the world might be different if this were not so - the statue of liberty upholding a slipper instead of a torch - or sportsmen wearing slippers in their most memorable moments ... Mohamed Ali learnt his shuffle in slippers ...

Variant 2 - Movie star slippers, find those classic old black-and-white movies where the stars were so often wearing smoking jackets and slippers. Have stories from the slippers themselves recalling their fall from grace...

Example 3:
Create one of those sections where you're never sure if the company is serious (and nuts) or doing some of the greatest dead-pan humour, but its hillarious. Over the top passion about slippers, how they are designed, a day in the life of a master slipper craftsman, all funny without being obviously intended to be. These things get picked up all the time in forums and so on, and can generate not only links, but considerable traffic too when they hit newsgroups.

That's three ideas that I'm making up as I type - in moments. Spend time and I'm sure you can think of hundreds.

Even if you couldn't come up with anything for creative content, then there's still the other methods of getting those links.

Okay, who are your main customers?

If the elderly, sponsor something that benefits them (and that has a website about it). Create articles on any topic that is useful to the elderly - maybe even on just how to keep warm in those winter months (that way you can plug the slippers too).

If the middle-aged age group are the main customers then make stuff that interests them. It could be parenting articles, it could be about divource, it really doesn't matter - the point is that it comes from someone from the slipper company and thus gets the link.

It enhances the reputation of the company as a caring and generous one.

People in hospitals often buy slippers when they'd not normally wear them at home. Write testimonials for charitable appeals sites, turn up to charity events that will gain web coverage. Get out there and get involved in the community, and the real-world 'links' you build will be echoed on the web.

If it can be done about slippers, it can be done about anything, and I hope this reply shows you that it can be done for slippers, and done well. It just takes a little thought. Once you stop looking for the 'cheat' but still accept you need the links, its simply another of the thousands of problems you solve every day, with thought, creativity and determination.

[Black_Knight]

Good point about the amatuer writers, Ron, though of course an amatuer (by very definition, one who does it for the love of it) may not ge able to get much inspiration about slippers, hairspray or various widgets.

There are lots of people who fancy themselves writers, waxing lyrical about love, life and death, yet few are those who can muster the same zeal and passion for commercial writings.

There are a few specific writing communities that might be especially good places to start looking though. There are quite a few sites where people are encouraged to write about exactly the commonplace products and services, to write in a way that expresses what is good, or bad, about those things...

www.epinions.com - www.dooyoo.com - www.ciao.com - those are three of the best I know for quality of writing about commercial products and services. Of those, dooyoo is the one that also has a place for more article type 'essays' on all kinds of issues (thus good for finding an article writer who can also write about products).

Each of those has a 'Profile Page' for each of the thousands of active writers, always giving some method of easy contact, their homepage if they have one, and often their email address.

Read around to find a few writers whose styles you like and who might be interested in some easy 'work from home cash' (which due to the very nature of the sites will pretty much be all of them) and contact a few when you've researched the ones that fit your bill.

[Marie]

Gee, folks! I really have a discussion rolling here!

However, may I go back to linking for a bit? Ammon, thank you so much for your reply. I think that I now have an idea how do the web promotion properly. And feel good about it.

There is one question I still have - just to check if I am understanding. Does what you say mean that you can have a web page with no links page and still rank high without doing all the linking we talked about? That there are some people who link to pages 'for free'? By which I mean they don't request a link back to them.

Thank you!

The discussion about writers is really exciting! I study literature and have already gone through the frustrations of writing. And I completely agree with Ammon, to feel like a writer is one thing. Actual writing is the other!

Have a nice day, folks!

Marie

[Marie]

And one more thing!! What does it mean when a page ranks 0 at Google. Even if they have links. Does it mean the page is banned?

Marie

[wanderer]

example 1:
A flash game, where you have to guide the dog to find the slippers - done with cutesy graphics and some visual jokes this would probably gain a huge amount of popularity as a 'latest craze' thing if done right.

example 2:
A jokey page on the general image of slippers - we all love the comfort of a good pair of slippers (especially in the colder months) and yet its like familiarity breeds contempt.

Variant 1 - Add some silly images of how the world might be different if this were not so - the statue of liberty upholding a slipper instead of a torch - or sportsmen wearing slippers in their most memorable moments ...  Mohamed Ali learnt his shuffle in slippers ...

Variant 2 - Movie star slippers, find those classic old black-and-white movies where the stars were so often wearing smoking jackets and slippers.  Have stories from the slippers themselves recalling their fall from grace...

Example 3:
Create one of those sections where you're never sure if the company is serious (and nuts) or doing some of the greatest dead-pan humour, but its hillarious.  Over the top passion about slippers, how they are designed, a day in the life of a master slipper craftsman, all funny without being obviously intended to be.  These things get picked up all the time in forums and so on, and can generate not only links, but considerable traffic too when they hit newsgroups.

Yeeeessss. I see where you're going with this. Think outside the box. Excellent ideas. Thanks. I am thinking now about how I can apply similar ideas to my particular "slippers".

Thanks again Ammon.

[Aaron]

Gee, folks! I really have a discussion rolling here!

However, may I go back to linking for a bit? Ammon, thank you so much for your reply. I think that I now have an idea how do the web promotion properly. And feel good about it.

There is one question I still have - just to check if I am understanding. Does what you say mean that you can have a web page with no links page and still rank high without doing all the linking we talked about? That there are some people who link to pages 'for free'? By which I mean they don't request a link back to them.

Thank you!

The discussion about writers is really exciting! I study literature and have already gone through the frustrations of writing. And I completely agree with Ammon, to feel like a writer is one thing. Actual writing is the other!

Have a nice day, folks!

Marie

In absence of Ammon, I'll provide a response.

Most definitely people WILL link voluntarily to your website without ever having to request a link from them in the first place.

If you offer enough "sticky" materials (tips, articles, how-to's, communities, resouces to other website, games - as Ammon suggested, etc) then you will find more and more websites linking to you without ever having to request that link.

You'll be able to notice this trend in your logs as these sites send more and more visitors.

Case in point - one of my clients receives about 100 referrals a month from one site that links to them. They/I did not request this link, they simply found it on the net and found it to be a good resource for backyard ice rink building products and information they decided to link to it.

Free traffic that concerts nicely for them cannot be beaten

Just my thoughts.

Aaron

[Aaron]

Yes there are. 
A lot of people, including myself believe that Google has been reducing the weight of reciprocating links and may end up discounting them entirely, in other words reciprocal links are not going to be weighted as much as a one way link. So the idea that reciprocal links are desirable is going to be history very soon IMO. 

I'm affraid that I have to disagree with your statement here about links soon not being disirable.

There will always be a call for links ffrom other sites regardless how the ranking in the SERPS or that of PageRank is calculated.

Outside links into your site provide your website with invaluable traffic, especialyl where niche and targeted websites are concerned.

Just because Google may b stop giving any weighting criteria from inbound links, why should one stop finding ways to link or get links with other sites? Are you willing to go a a site that has linked to you and is currently supply 100 uniques a month just because Google has decided to stop or limit weighting of links?

Aaron

Edit: I goofed up the quote indenting