Jump to content

Cre8asiteforums Internet Marketing
and Conversion Web Design


Photo

linking strategies


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1 Marie

Marie

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 15 May 2003 - 08:34 AM

Hi,

I have a question concerning linking strategies. My company has several pages and only few of them are set for outgoing links. However, I am collecting links even to these pages. But since I cannot reciprocate, I have to offer links from the sites that have link pages. So that I have on one page piling up links that don't link back to the web page and the PR is lowered. I actually dropped from 5 to 4 in the last dance. Is there a way how to avoid this?

Thanks

Marie

#2 Grumpus

Grumpus

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 6263 posts

Posted 15 May 2003 - 11:15 AM

It's tough to say exactly what to do at this point since the EternaDance is still less than halfway through. You might just find that after it all settles down that you didn't lose any PR at all. Then again, you might have.

Now, once the dance settles and everything is running normally, you might be a PR4 but it doesn't mean that your linking strategy is the cause of it. (Though it very well may be). PR isn't an absolute number, it's rather akin to being graded on a curve. So, if you are a low 5 this month, it's quite normal to be a high 4 next month (you can't tell if you are high or low, just the number you've been given that month). The fun thing here is that you'll really see no difference in your traffic levels - you'll still see roughly the same number of referals because of the curve factor, itself.

I wouldn't worry about this at all. My movie site goes back and forth between 5 and 6 all the time and the traffic is always constant from month to month (figuring in seasonal variations, of course). If it suddenly drops 2 points, then it's time to question what you're doing.

G.

#3 Marie

Marie

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 16 May 2003 - 09:12 AM

Hi Grumpus,

thanks for your reply. I was just wondering since none of my bosses were alarmed... Although, this job is really a mystery to me. So many things you have to be cautious about when they are hardly clearly defined!

For example - recirpocal links. Are they more worthy than non-reciprocal?

And my eternal question WHAT A .... IS THE BAD NEIGHBORHOOD!!

I mean I already got couple answers but ... I still can't say what it is and I decided on this really randomly.

Have a nice day,

Marie

#4 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 16 May 2003 - 11:26 AM

my eternal question WHAT A .... IS THE BAD NEIGHBORHOOD!!


Essentially, a bad neighbourhood is whatever Google decides to label as one. It is almost always done where Google have determined that you are trying to manipulate PageRank. That means if you are swapping links in the hopes of gaining PR rather than solely because those links are for your users, you're risking becoming a 'bad neighbourhood'.

The term itself is indicative of what its all about. Sites that are linked to others in a bad way (from Google's perspective).

The advice is simple: Never add a link just because you want one back. Only add links that you want your visitors to use. That's what links are for, after all, and anything else Google tends to regard as misuse.

Here's a couple of the many prior discussions that may help:

The PR0 Algo Hypothesis
http://www.cre8asite...?showtopic=1283

Google being unscrupulous?
http://www.cre8asite...p?showtopic=219

#5 Marie

Marie

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 06:21 AM

How true and nice what you are saying! However, the possition - or better my job is doing exactly what Google disregards. My bosses want it so. I look for content relevant pages with a good PR and try to get links to increase our PR. Generally speaking, we are a bad neighborhood. Or at least bad guys and a girl.

Now that you put it like this, I guess I should worry less about these things. Until my bosses change their policy I doubt I will be able to be doing a really good and meaningful job. The main problem I had was the tension between the advice of my bosses what I should not do - when in fact, to do my job, I have to be going against these rules ...

Thank you so much for the advice. One day, when I have MY web page, I will be doing it right : )

Have a nice day,

Marie

#6 Marie

Marie

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 06:27 AM

Especially when I see so many pages that have no link pages and page rank 8! I am not sure how these pages get their PR but I guess it must be good content and user orientedness...

Marie

#7 DianeV

DianeV

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 7216 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 06:32 AM

Yes, good content for users that people value enough to link to it. I've checked sites that we built for clients years later, only to find that they had zillions of links that we did not request (and neither did the client). The thing in common across these sites is that they either were rather outstanding in their fields and/or had content that people valued.

#8 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 03:56 PM

Okay, lets try to nail down exactly what a linking strategy should be, how to devise, and how to implement one.

The first thing to realise is that gaining links to your site is a Marketing Objective. Capital M and O. It needs to be approached like other marketing objectives.

To get sales to your site, you design a site that attracts sales. You don't send out emails to other companies saying that if you'll buy from them if they'll buy from you. So why do webmasters send out reciprocal linking requests? Simple, because its less work, and used to be an easy way to cheat the system.

However, times have changed, and if you think about it, your company may not want to be associated with 'cheats' and corner-cutting publicly anyway.

So lets look at how to approach it like the marketing objective it is today. You make it a part of the design. You build link-attracting content, and link-helping features right into the website.

If you want links, make something that people will want to link to. Think 'Viral Marketing' - something people will want to tell others about, some through links, but an unseen majority will do so by passing the URL to family and friends via email and chat.

The same content that acquires 4 inbound links on its own merit, will also inspire a hundred bookmarks and 40 mentions in viral marketing. Reciprocal linking doesn't carry those side-benefits, and I can tell you that the side benefits are sometimes worth a lot more than the links.

There is still a place for reciprocal linking - but not under that name, which has become too closely associated with spam. Look for business partnerships with other websites that are useful to your own customers, and whose customers are useful to you. Look for compatible but not competing partners, then form a partnership where you link to each other actively, mutual promotion, not tucked away in a links directory, but right there in your content - because you have a partner you're proud to be associated with, and who is proud to be associated with you.

You can get links in return for things other than links too. Giving testimonials, or articles, to other sites will almost always earn you a link in return. More importantly, those links will usually be far more valuable than ones crammed into a links page no one wants to visit on some other site that also links to at least 6 of your competitors.

Basically, reciprocal linking (as commonly applied) is the tactic of the amatuer. You 'buy' links at the expense of similarly boosting the site that will link to many of your competitors. As your own PageRank increases (if you are lucky) so does that of the site linking to you, and so does that of all the other sites they link to, and you already know they are happy to link to sites in your market - your competitors.

Partnership building requires more investment of trust, and so has a higher barrier to competition - allowing you to get an edge over your competitors.

Building link-inspiring content attracts links automatically, and in greater numbers, and better yet, has side-benefits in terms of other aspects of viral marketing.

Creating articles not only gets you links, but establishes credibility and deeper interest too. Employing a writer to create a dozen articles may actually be cheaper than paying someone to spend weeks on a reciprocal linking campaign, and doesn't carry any of the risks to PR, nor does it require out-bound links, thus helping keep all the increased PR benefit within your own site, not leaking out to your competition.

Hope that helps readers get some ideas going.

[size=9][Edited to correct typos - BK]

#9 Aaron

Aaron

    Gravity Master Member

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 04:14 PM

Ammon - very good!

The part about hiring a writer to create articles is exactly what I have proposed with a client and I think they're keen on the idea thus far.

One question... speaking of writers. Who here knows of decent writers (or where I can find some) that doesn't cost an absolute fortune?

I'm often skeptical to seek out new writers via search engines, especially for web writing (seo) work when they haven't a clue.

In Canada there doesn't seem to be much call for this and if there is my client are getting raked over the coals on pricing...some that I have worked with are upwards of $400/page :D

Again, good post Ammon.

Aaron

#10 wanderer

wanderer

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 306 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 08:01 PM

I can recommend an excellent writer/editor whose rates are very reasonable. She did a considerable amount of work for the Canadian government's Virtual Gramaphone project.

Contact info:

M.D. Noel
Ibis Consulting
mdn@achilles.net

Good luck!

#11 wanderer

wanderer

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 306 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 08:48 PM

Ammon - question

I have some clients whose sites/products do not really lend themselves to this kind of marketing. I am finding it a real challenge to figure out how to generate "content" for them.

For instance, slippers (unique slippers, but slippers nonetheless). What kind of "I want to link to that" content can be created about slippers?

When you refer to testimonials and articles do you mean same about their site/product or your own? If theirs, how does that result in a link to you? If your own, how do you find sites that would be interested in what amounts to a sales pitch for your product? If the article is actually supposed to be only topical and not product specific, how does that promote a link to the product site?

I can see how this approach would be very workable when dealing with a product about which information abounds and in which people are interested. But what do you do when the product, by its very nature, engenders little or no information.

I've been wrestling with this for awhile. Suggestions? Please ...

#12 Ron Carnell

Ron Carnell

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Invited Users For Labs
  • 2062 posts

Posted 22 May 2003 - 10:15 PM

At the risk of sounding simple, I think the best place to find good writers at less than professional rates would be at communities specifically devoted to writing. Of course, that's probably not a totally unbiased opinion, since I happen to run one. :)

Seriously, I would be the first to admit that ninety percent of the people at my site are, at best, fledgling writers with far more dreams than experience or ability. They would not be suitable candidates. But that still leaves about ten percent of several thousand, who have often spent years honing their skills to match their desires. These are people who write because they truly love it and aren't necessarily looking to get rich. Many are professionals, including a judge in Colorado, a teacher living on Cape Code, a business owner in London, Ontario, and a psychiatrist in New York City. Did I mention the sheep farmer in the Netherlands? :(

Heck, during the past four years, these people have very gladly provided me with about (just checked) 148,000 pages of content. They also write my newsletters. In return, I offer them a substantial readership (over a million uniques a month), and several have been approached by book publishers (like the Chicken Soup people) because of their exposure. They are talented, prolific, dedicated to their craft, and I suspect many would welcome the opportunity to make a few bucks doing what they will otherwise continue to do for free any way.

And mine is just one of many sites devoted to writing. On the Internet, finding good writers at reasonable rates should be easy. All you have to do is look, find someone you like, and then ask them.

#13 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 01:04 AM

For instance, slippers (unique slippers, but slippers nonetheless). What kind of "I want to link to that" content can be created about slippers?


All kinds, depending on how creative and clever you want to be...

example 1:
A flash game, where you have to guide the dog to find the slippers - done with cutesy graphics and some visual jokes this would probably gain a huge amount of popularity as a 'latest craze' thing if done right.

example 2:
A jokey page on the general image of slippers - we all love the comfort of a good pair of slippers (especially in the colder months) and yet its like familiarity breeds contempt.

Variant 1 - Add some silly images of how the world might be different if this were not so - the statue of liberty upholding a slipper instead of a torch - or sportsmen wearing slippers in their most memorable moments ... Mohamed Ali learnt his shuffle in slippers ...

Variant 2 - Movie star slippers, find those classic old black-and-white movies where the stars were so often wearing smoking jackets and slippers. Have stories from the slippers themselves recalling their fall from grace...

Example 3:
Create one of those sections where you're never sure if the company is serious (and nuts) or doing some of the greatest dead-pan humour, but its hillarious. Over the top passion about slippers, how they are designed, a day in the life of a master slipper craftsman, all funny without being obviously intended to be. These things get picked up all the time in forums and so on, and can generate not only links, but considerable traffic too when they hit newsgroups.

That's three ideas that I'm making up as I type - in moments. Spend time and I'm sure you can think of hundreds.

Even if you couldn't come up with anything for creative content, then there's still the other methods of getting those links.

Okay, who are your main customers?

If the elderly, sponsor something that benefits them (and that has a website about it). Create articles on any topic that is useful to the elderly - maybe even on just how to keep warm in those winter months (that way you can plug the slippers too).

If the middle-aged age group are the main customers then make stuff that interests them. It could be parenting articles, it could be about divource, it really doesn't matter - the point is that it comes from someone from the slipper company and thus gets the link.

It enhances the reputation of the company as a caring and generous one.

People in hospitals often buy slippers when they'd not normally wear them at home. Write testimonials for charitable appeals sites, turn up to charity events that will gain web coverage. Get out there and get involved in the community, and the real-world 'links' you build will be echoed on the web.

If it can be done about slippers, it can be done about anything, and I hope this reply shows you that it can be done for slippers, and done well. It just takes a little thought. Once you stop looking for the 'cheat' but still accept you need the links, its simply another of the thousands of problems you solve every day, with thought, creativity and determination.

#14 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 01:54 AM

Good point about the amatuer writers, Ron, though of course an amatuer (by very definition, one who does it for the love of it) may not ge able to get much inspiration about slippers, hairspray or various widgets.

There are lots of people who fancy themselves writers, waxing lyrical about love, life and death, yet few are those who can muster the same zeal and passion for commercial writings.

There are a few specific writing communities that might be especially good places to start looking though. There are quite a few sites where people are encouraged to write about exactly the commonplace products and services, to write in a way that expresses what is good, or bad, about those things...

www.epinions.com - www.dooyoo.com - www.ciao.com - those are three of the best I know for quality of writing about commercial products and services. Of those, dooyoo is the one that also has a place for more article type 'essays' on all kinds of issues (thus good for finding an article writer who can also write about products).

Each of those has a 'Profile Page' for each of the thousands of active writers, always giving some method of easy contact, their homepage if they have one, and often their email address.

Read around to find a few writers whose styles you like and who might be interested in some easy 'work from home cash' (which due to the very nature of the sites will pretty much be all of them) and contact a few when you've researched the ones that fit your bill.

#15 Marie

Marie

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 08:58 AM

Gee, folks! I really have a discussion rolling here!

However, may I go back to linking for a bit? Ammon, thank you so much for your reply. I think that I now have an idea how do the web promotion properly. And feel good about it.

There is one question I still have - just to check if I am understanding. Does what you say mean that you can have a web page with no links page and still rank high without doing all the linking we talked about? That there are some people who link to pages 'for free'? By which I mean they don't request a link back to them.

Thank you!

The discussion about writers is really exciting! I study literature and have already gone through the frustrations of writing. And I completely agree with Ammon, to feel like a writer is one thing. Actual writing is the other!

Have a nice day, folks!

Marie

#16 Marie

Marie

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 09:05 AM

And one more thing!! What does it mean when a page ranks 0 at Google. Even if they have links. Does it mean the page is banned?

Marie

#17 wanderer

wanderer

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 306 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 09:07 AM

example 1:
A flash game, where you have to guide the dog to find the slippers - done with cutesy graphics and some visual jokes this would probably gain a huge amount of popularity as a 'latest craze' thing if done right.

example 2:
A jokey page on the general image of slippers - we all love the comfort of a good pair of slippers (especially in the colder months) and yet its like familiarity breeds contempt.

Variant 1 - Add some silly images of how the world might be different if this were not so - the statue of liberty upholding a slipper instead of a torch - or sportsmen wearing slippers in their most memorable moments ...  Mohamed Ali learnt his shuffle in slippers ...

Variant 2 - Movie star slippers, find those classic old black-and-white movies where the stars were so often wearing smoking jackets and slippers.  Have stories from the slippers themselves recalling their fall from grace...

Example 3:
Create one of those sections where you're never sure if the company is serious (and nuts) or doing some of the greatest dead-pan humour, but its hillarious.  Over the top passion about slippers, how they are designed, a day in the life of a master slipper craftsman, all funny without being obviously intended to be.  These things get picked up all the time in forums and so on, and can generate not only links, but considerable traffic too when they hit newsgroups.


Yeeeessss. I see where you're going with this. Think outside the box. Excellent ideas. Thanks. I am thinking now about how I can apply similar ideas to my particular "slippers".

Thanks again Ammon.

#18 Aaron

Aaron

    Gravity Master Member

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 09:08 AM

Gee, folks! I really have a discussion rolling here!

However, may I go back to linking for a bit? Ammon, thank you so much for your reply. I think that I now have an idea how do the web promotion properly. And feel good about it.

There is one question I still have - just to check if I am understanding. Does what you say mean that you can have a web page with no links page and still rank high without doing all the linking we talked about? That there are some people who link to pages 'for free'? By which I mean they don't request a link back to them.

Thank you!

The discussion about writers is really exciting! I study literature and have already gone through the frustrations of writing. And I completely agree with Ammon, to feel like a writer is one thing. Actual writing is the other!

Have a nice day, folks!

Marie


In absence of Ammon, I'll provide a response.

Most definitely people WILL link voluntarily to your website without ever having to request a link from them in the first place.

If you offer enough "sticky" materials (tips, articles, how-to's, communities, resouces to other website, games - as Ammon suggested, etc) then you will find more and more websites linking to you without ever having to request that link.

You'll be able to notice this trend in your logs as these sites send more and more visitors.

Case in point - one of my clients receives about 100 referrals a month from one site that links to them. They/I did not request this link, they simply found it on the net and found it to be a good resource for backyard ice rink building products and information they decided to link to it.

Free traffic that concerts nicely for them cannot be beaten :D

Just my thoughts.

Aaron

#19 Guest_Lots0_*

Guest_Lots0_*
  • Guests

Posted 23 May 2003 - 03:15 PM

Does what you say mean that you can have a web page with no links page and still rank high without doing all the linking we talked about?

I can’t answer for Ammon, but here is a few things from my own perspective. I am going to try to answer your question but it is going to be in a roundabout way.

For PageRank purposes there are two basic types of links; Affiliated links and Non-affiliated links.

Affiliated links are links between two pages in the same domain (sometimes called site navigation links) or links between two domains that are associated.

Non-affiliated links are links between pages of different domains that have no common ownership or association.

Non-affiliated links carry the most weight with google and are the most desirable but are also the most difficult to acquire. These are the types of links you have been talking about.

Affiliated links or site navigation links carry less weight than non-affiliated links, but they DO carry weight. If used correctly non-affiliated links can influence PageRank quite a bit. For every page on your site that links to another page on your site you are generating a small amount of PageRank for those pages on your site....So if you create a vast amount of pages that all link together (in the correct fashion) you WILL increase your PageRank. Note: It is always best to create good quality pages with lots of unique content and to avoid “cookie-cutter” pages. However, for PageRank purposes unique content on pages is not necessary.

So the answer to your question is yes, a site with no links page can still rank high without attempting to acquire non-affiliated links. Note: PageRank is only one of a hundred or more things Google looks at before it determines SERP, high PR does NOT mean your page will appear in the top 10 for any keyword.

That there are some people who link to pages 'for free'? By which I mean they don't request a link back to them.

Yes there are.
A lot of people, including myself believe that Google has been reducing the weight of reciprocating links and may end up discounting them entirely, in other words reciprocal links are not going to be weighted as much as a one way link. So the idea that reciprocal links are desirable is going to be history very soon IMO.

What does it mean when a page ranks 0 at Google. Even if they have links. Does it mean the page is banned?

Not banned (if it were banned it would not be in the index) If the site is over five or six months old it is suffering a penalty of some kind. Usually these sites are the ones that are considered “Bad Neighborhoods” by Google.

#20 Aaron

Aaron

    Gravity Master Member

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 03:23 PM

Yes there are. 
A lot of people, including myself believe that Google has been reducing the weight of reciprocating links and may end up discounting them entirely, in other words reciprocal links are not going to be weighted as much as a one way link. So the idea that reciprocal links are desirable is going to be history very soon IMO. 


I'm affraid that I have to disagree with your statement here about links soon not being disirable.

There will always be a call for links ffrom other sites regardless how the ranking in the SERPS or that of PageRank is calculated.

Outside links into your site provide your website with invaluable traffic, especialyl where niche and targeted websites are concerned.

Just because Google may b stop giving any weighting criteria from inbound links, why should one stop finding ways to link or get links with other sites? Are you willing to go a a site that has linked to you and is currently supply 100 uniques a month just because Google has decided to stop or limit weighting of links?

Aaron

Edit: I goofed up the quote indenting :D

#21 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 23 May 2003 - 09:22 PM

Ammon, thank you so much for your reply. I think that I now have an idea how do the web promotion properly. And feel good about it.


Marie, you're very welcome. That's what these forums are all about, and knowing that we've not only helped you do better, but feel better about it too, is why I spend so much time here.

Does what you say mean that you can have a web page with no links page and still rank high without doing all the linking we talked about? That there are some people who link to pages 'for free'? By which I mean they don't request a link back to them.


Aaron and Lots0 have given you a pretty comprehensive answer to this already.

Lots0 is right to point out that internal links (links between pages on the same site) are almost as important as external links (links on other sites to your pages). Google still looks at pages - not sites. The other engines (Fast for one) often almost discount link popularity from pages in the same domain, but Google counts them highly. The link counts, the link-text counts, etc. This rewards good navigation structure, so it makes good sense.

Aside from that, look at some of the most important links most sites will seek ... when was the last time a DMOZ editor refused to list you unless you linked to his category? :D

DMOZ, JoeAnt, GoGuides, Gimpsy, and a million smaller, topical directories will link to any good site that fits the topic of their categories because such links are their whole reason for being.

Think outside the box.


Absolutely. Marketing online isn't like coding. There isn't a strict set of tags and structure that you have to adhere to. Be creative and it will usually pay off.

What does it mean when a page ranks 0 at Google. Even if they have links. Does it mean the page is banned?


Lots0 gave a great reply to this. The PRzero is the Google penalty for "manipulating pageRank" which can be given automatically if you link to a "bad neighborhood". My own hypothesis on some of the machinations of this can be found in another thread.

I'm affraid that I have to disagree with your statement here about links soon not being disirable.


Lots0 was referring specifically to reciprocal links. I think this entire thread rather reinforces his statement. Reciprocal linking (as it is commonly done) is no longer as desirable as it once seemed, and will likely become far less so.

Naturally, linking itself will always be desirable, and Google's USP is entirely based on using the existance of links, but where links are included as the modern equivalent of hidden text, mainly to pervert rankings, rather than as content, Google will keep working on ways to penalise this.

Already too much reciprocal linking causes problems, at least in that Google seems to detect a 'pocket' - a ring of links it finds hard to escape from that lead it round in circles. This will be penalised. My hypothesis regarding PR penalties, which I mentioned above, is even more specific, but none yet have found any evidence to disprove the hypothesis.

#22 Guest_Lots0_*

Guest_Lots0_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 May 2003 - 02:41 PM

Aaron wrote,

I'm affraid that I have to disagree with your statement here about links soon not being disirable.

Ammon is correct, as usual, I was talking specifically about reciprocal links. :lol:
Reciprocal link = page A on domain A links to page B on domain B and Page B on domain B links to page A on domain A, creating a sort of “linking loop” between two pages on different domains.

I in NO way believe that hyper text transfer protocol links will be going away any time soon, it is the foundation of the web as we know it. :wink:

#23 Aaron

Aaron

    Gravity Master Member

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 24 May 2003 - 02:44 PM

Aaron wrote,

I'm affraid that I have to disagree with your statement here about links soon not being disirable.

Ammon is correct, as usual, I was talking specifically about reciprocal links. :lol:
Reciprocal link = page A on domain A links to page B on domain B and Page B on domain B links to page A on domain A, creating a sort of “linking loop” between two pages on different domains.

I in NO way believe that hyper text transfer protocol links will be going away any time soon, it is the foundation of the web as we know it. :wink:


Ok, my apologies then. It wasn't quite clear to me your intended message ;)

Aaron

#24 Guest_Lots0_*

Guest_Lots0_*
  • Guests

Posted 24 May 2003 - 02:52 PM

Ok, my apologies then.

No apologies needed :wink: - This just shows me I need to work on my communication skills more.

#25 wanderer

wanderer

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 306 posts

Posted 25 May 2003 - 10:03 PM

What does it mean when a page ranks 0 at Google. Even if they have links. Does it mean the page is banned?

Not banned (if it were banned it would not be in the index) If the site is over five or six months old it is suffering a penalty of some kind. Usually these sites are the ones that are considered “Bad Neighborhoods” by Google.


I have a question/thought about PR0. We know that PR is actually not measured in whole numbers. So, does it not stand to reason that some sites that show a PR0 in fact just have a PR lower than 1? If it is possible to have a PR that falls between 4 and 5, etc., it must also be possible to have a PR between 0 and 1, right? If a page had a PR that was less than 1, wouldn't it show as PR0.

#26 Arnvid

Arnvid

    Gravity Master Member

  • Members
  • 159 posts

Posted 11 July 2003 - 09:42 PM

Hi Aaron - a lead to add to the list (a bit late maybe, but the topic is still valid I guess :roll: ).

"One question... speaking of writers. Who here knows of decent writers (or where I can find some) that doesn't cost an absolute fortune?"


Ron and Ammon - Good ideas and links

Let me first say that I don't think you will find too many who will / can do technical or directly commercial writing - then on the other side it’s not always that part that's needed. Wendy in another thread got her site "Parenting Resources" and I'm not sure she solely should use technical writings about children - :twisted:

With that said, have a look around www.suite101.com for writers.
Here its easy to find them as they are listed under a directory
http://www.suite101.com/directory.cfm
but also under "communities"
http://www.suite101.com/coi/

Here you can look at the writers existing articles as every writer must publish a minimum of one article a month and you can look at their profiles.

Some are amateurs and other professional writers, but nobody got a chance to get in without being accepted by the managing editor for each area. Suite101 are close to fanatic about plagiarism and any editor found in that ditch will never get a second chance (I know as I was senior managing editor there for a few years) - so one should not be that worried about buying "stolen" text (such happens unfortunately).

Before the writers at the suite was paid a symbolic sum of 30 dollars a month, but when we in a period had 1500 writers that was a cost for those who had the moneybag. Today they write for free and it’s only about 600 writers there (but the number is climbing). Still don't expect them to write for free for a site, especially if it’s a business site. On the other hand, write politely to them and show them that you actually have been reading some of their articles (some spam suite101 for writers, and that is not too popular) - and my guess is that one most often will end up with a win/win solution and price.

Mind you, the suite got many highly established writers as well, just look at the profile of Billy Marshall Stoneking
http://www.suite101....cfm/stoneking31
Billy have been writing Paramount's "Mission: Impossible" and the ABC's "Stalker", lots of stage plays that has been staged in Sydney, Melbourne, London, Dublin, Massachusetts, and more. Add to that a very decent number of books.

Then on the other side there are writers publishing their first article ever at the suite. The plus is that all have been "filtered" before accepted so there is a certain minimum level of their writing.

You got very much the same setup at About.com, but most editors at about are earning quite decent from that site, so my guess is that you would have to pay more if you ask there. The level of writers on both sites is not that different and a lot of the about.com writers came over to the suite as they found more freedom there - even if loosing the pay.

Hope that lead can be of help to someone, and if I can be of help or maybe put any in contact, please feel free to let me know. That is especially since all the best writers who don't of different reasons don't write there any more (personally I just had no more time available to do it) have their topics "achieved" as you can see from one of my old articles
http://www.suite101....al_travel/62663

So if the writer you absolutely need is "achieved" and the listed email address don't work, let me know as well and I will try to see if I can find her/him.

Bottom-line is that what Ammon say here:

"Employing a writer to create a dozen articles may actually be cheaper than paying someone to spend weeks on a reciprocal linking campaign"


My guess is that this statement is one that just will increase in importance.

In short, good and related content is always a good place to start. So far I can’t see content going out of fashion - :?

#27 glyn

glyn

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2486 posts

Posted 15 July 2003 - 02:45 AM

For instance, slippers (unique slippers, but slippers nonetheless). What kind of "I want to link to that" content can be created about slippers?


Try newsletter lists for elderly people. Something like Saga springs to mind. Or you might be able to do a deal with one of those insurance companies that advertise on the TV duyring the afternoon asking for people who are "over 60" to renew with them.

As for linking campaigns. I would never have a site where the reciprocal links came from and landed on the same webpages.

Also, something that has not been mentioned, and I am slightly surprised by this. Ir maybe it has and I missed it...

If you wanted, you could always put your reciprocal link inside a piece of Javascript like is done on this forum. That way your link will not be indexed by a search engine, PR will not be diluted and if the neighbourhood goes bad, it's not going to matter.

In the end the best way to do a linking campaign is to find one site a day and send a personal email to them telling them why its a good thing to exchange links. In this way the approach is measured and carefully thought out. You could always keep a scratch pad, copying sites you see in your daily surfing to your notepad for future campaigning. That way, in a year you'll have 360+ (including a couple of days off!) sites, which if linked correctly will probably take position 1 on most of the search engines.

Hope this helps.

#28 farees

farees

    Whirl Wind Member

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 17 July 2003 - 05:29 PM

Well the thing about quality content writers is true, its very hard to find them for a reasonable price, but hey if you just pay peanuts you get monkeys.
We are also planning to hire a PR firm for writing health and diet articles for our site www.gojuvo.com . Hey Ammon I will look into suite 101 too,thanks for that info. But for the time being we just put up outbound links to other sites which have quality articles and match to the products we are trying to push into the market (http://www.gojuvo.co...ns/story_66.php)

Now coming on to the PR, well should'nt we all be worried about getting more business and ranked on the first few pages of the search engine results. I mean there are sites who have a page rank 0 and still show up on the first page of the search engine. And there are sites with page ranks 5 or more who show up like on 80th page. Having a flashy site with all the goodies and a PR of 6 or above is definitely good, but its not gonna do us any good if it does not bring in the moolah. Plus more traffic does not mean mean more business, its the conversion rates that matter. So in all we should contentrate more in improving the customer experience on the web site rather than the search engine experience.

#29 glyn

glyn

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2486 posts

Posted 22 July 2003 - 07:31 AM

So in all we should contentrate more in improving the customer experience on the web site rather than the search engine experience.


Actually you should concentrate on the first and then hammer the second. If the first is bad the second becomes a redundant investment. If the first is the best and the second has not been actioned all you've got is referral traffic and perhaps some email marketing.

Glyn.

#30 bens1901

bens1901

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 05 May 2004 - 04:19 AM

I agree completely with promoting articles and content, rather than a large collection of links. However, I've heard that the new search engine algorithms prefer quality over quantity. So, it sounds like 3 links from PR 7 sites are more valuable than 500 links from PR 0 or 1 sites. If this is the case, then would having the general public's PR 0 or 1 sites linking to your site really make an impact on your PR rating?

of course, if 500 people link to your site on their own accord, then it suggests that word of mouth will also promote your site. But if word of mouth doesn't bring them to your site, then they might consider using a search engine to find a site.

Pleae let me know if my impression of the search engine algorithm is incorrect.

#31 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 05 May 2004 - 07:03 AM

However, I've heard that the new search engine algorithms prefer quality over quantity. So, it sounds like 3 links from PR 7 sites are more valuable than 500 links from PR 0 or 1 sites. If this is the case, then would having the general public's PR 0 or 1 sites linking to your site really make an impact on your PR rating?

Okay, there's a couple of points which you may already know, but need to be clarified before I can agree with your 'understanding of algorithms' being quite right. :D

First up, the quality over quantity thing has been there right from the start of using link popularity with Google, and with many (most?) of the other first-tier engines too. Its not just the new algorithms, unless the old ones are only those from when such analysis was just in the testing stage at universities purely for research. You'll find that research into quality over quantity goes back to the Eighties.

Probably just an oversight in typing rather than a misunderstanding, but it is important to correct anyway: sites do not have a PageRank. Only individual URLs are ranked. The page at the root domain has a score, but internal pages on the same site will have different scores. PageRank and other Link Pop algorithms rank pages, not sites.

An average personal homepage will have a PR of about 3. It's links page may be lower of course, so a PR2 is about typical. I rarely see a PR0 or PR1 outside of larger dynamic or commercial sites.
If you care to test that, you'll find that the ODP have a section just for ordinary personal homepages
http://dmoz.org/Soci...onal_Homepages/
(There are other 'personal homepage' categorys in DMOZ for Teens, Regional categories, etc, as well)

Finally, in this brief double-check, you seem to have overlooked the importance of link text. 500 links that assign keyword relevance to a page but only PR4 may very often far outrank (in searches) the 3 links that gave PR6. PageRank scores do not assign relevancy to keywords or searches, they just act as a sorting measure for lots of documents that are roughly equally relevant. Keywords in the link text however assign relevancy.

#32 bens1901

bens1901

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 05 May 2004 - 07:48 AM

thanks for the clarification :-)

#33 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 05 May 2004 - 08:23 AM

Happy to have helped.

#34 glyn

glyn

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2486 posts

Posted 05 May 2004 - 12:48 PM

Nice and clear, like the site.

:D

#35 pcarlow

pcarlow

    New To Community

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 11 May 2004 - 11:20 AM

I would like to chime in here with my two cents. I have found reciprocal linking to be a very worthwhile endeavor and have even created a site around it. I personally believe that Google doesn't penalize for off topic links but gives a bonus to links coming from on topic pages. Every page on a site can be relevant to a different topic. Otherwise, general web directories would be useless.

In regards to articles I have also found that by writing my own articles and then submitting them to article banks the number of one way links I receive is very good. I have had several people post my articles on their sites but even if they never had, all the one way links from the article banks alone would have made it worth it.

Patrick

#36 surfmon

surfmon

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 13 May 2004 - 11:48 PM

How many article banks do you submit?
I could use the info for my site. ;)



RSS Feed

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users