Jump to content

Cre8asiteforums Internet Marketing
and Conversion Web Design


Photo

BIG problem with DMOZ


  • Please log in to reply
145 replies to this topic

#41 ozdata

ozdata

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 09:57 AM

DMOZ has an Apollo Hotel listed in a town called Papos in Cyprus. Is that the same one as apollo-hotel-cyprus?

edited. The smiling thing didn't look right even after two tries.

#42 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 10:00 AM

[quote]Stop the world, I want to get off.[/quote]

LMAO.

Can we get a link to said listed site? (Call it "Exhibit "A"")[/quote]

#43 ozdata

ozdata

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 10:13 AM

Whoops, wrong spelling. It's under Paphos - Travel and Tourism - Lodging - Hotels

#44 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 10:21 AM

Er...John look at my mugshot...look at the site. I think it would be a unanimous verdict :)

In truth? Because the business world makes demands of an individual. Those demands may be neither audible nor visible but contravening them may have consequences.

And far too many, ill-educated people (not stupid, just those who never take the time to investigate) equate cannabis with hard-core drugs. By association one may be convicted.

I have witnessed the devastating effects the cannabis trail can have upon the week-minded or easily led. To ask that cannabis be culturally acceptable requires a paradigm shift the likes of which we shall not see in many years - if ever in what remains of my lifetime.

In the UK, we are somewhat more adaptive to legislation, hopefully evidenced by the imminent reclassification from Class B to Class C drug and subsequent misdemeanour sentencing for possession and use.

The reason people are incarcerated is because the US and other governments want it that way.

There are innumerable arguments for and against its use, not the least of which is the whole structure of society being based around peer pressure, never more prevalent than in one's formative years at school, when the transition from a joint to a rock, crystal to crack and smack is just a drag away.

My step-son smoked dope at school as a 15-year old. At 17 he was a crack addict stealing from the home to support an insatiable appetite. He's now come to terms with it but not before I had to ask a court for leniency against a mandatory 2-year prison sentence for dealing ecstasy.

The reality is there are thieves and cut-throats within our societies who would relish positive legislation without the necessary educational support infrastructures in place to poison our impressionable youth. Governments know this; but they also know votes count. Legalise cannabis in the States and kiss goodbye your political career.

An ill-educated man is as a child; would you give a child a vodka and orange and say drink what you want?

The Uk has a more liberal attitude. Why, I don't know. Yet here the sale of cannabis seeds is not illegal and sensible personal cultivation, although illegal, is rarely viewed as a criminal activity demanding a prison sentence.

Yes, the laws with regard to the use of cannabis should, I believe be reviewed as is currently happening in the UK but commensurate with that must be a practical reappraisal of the use of all forms of artificial stimulants and sedatives.

Given these views, I had to think twice about webmastering the site.

#45 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 10:34 AM

DMOZ has an Apollo Hotel listed in a town called Papos in Cyprus. Is that the same one as apollo-hotel-cyprus?

Yup, thanks ozdata.

But this discovery begs the question - when was it accepted? You know, I have this horrible suspicion that I didn't spot it :oops: I say this because there have been 15 sites listed there for quite a few months, spring-cleaned from the 18 originals listed a year ago.

Anybody know how to identify the inclusion date?

#46 apeuro

apeuro

    Ready To Fly Member

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 11:57 AM

Does it matter?

#47 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 12:14 PM

Yes, because it means that I neglected to thank an editor who included the site - which I do as a matter of course as you'll see from Igor's recent resource-zone post.

And, besides, I'm fresh out of iambic pentameters :D

#48 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 01:57 PM

Enigma,

The only thing I found at RZ about hyphenated domains is this tidbit:

We tend to be wary of domains containing lots of hyphenated keywords as this tactic is often used for mirror and doorway domains, which we don't list.


It's in this thread

I seem to recall a more in depth discussion of it, but cannot find that thread...

#49 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 02:10 PM

Thanks, John. Had a look at that but it doesn't explain why. I'm puzzled. Perhap apeuro may materialise and enlighten us.

#50 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 02:13 PM

Just sounds like a simple case of domain profiling. :?:

#51 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 02:35 PM

Just sounds like a simple case of domain profiling.

Sorry, I don't know what that mean. Can you elaborate.

#52 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 02:40 PM

Like racial profiling. Pre-judging the nature of a site based on the domain; namely, whether it is hyphenated or not. 8)

#53 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 02:50 PM

Does that make any sense to you? Or has somebody fumbled the ball and inadvertently created a Chinese whisper? I still don't see how hyphenating, underscoring or whatever has any effect.

Let me suggest a possible example of 'creative' SEO. Given that Google didn't at one time stem for plurals one could conceivably build a domain name like blahphonesysetems thereby embracing both 'phone' and 'phones' within the phrase. (But I would argue that perfectly acceptable, anyway - it's called using your brain.)

That's the closest I can get to spamming in a name, and even that's contrived.

Am I being thick?

#54 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 02:56 PM

I would never, ever evaluate a site baed on the domain. I learned a long time ago that the domain isn't where the site's value is - it's within the site itself. A lot of perfectly short and non-hyphenated domains are mirror sites and spammy sites. It's just a waste of time to evaluate a site based on the domain its using.

#55 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 03:06 PM

It's just a waste of time to evaluate a site based on the domain its using.

Agreed in full with the content aspect but the name itself will enforce the site topic, as I suggested earlier with cannabisseeds.

For instance, I just banged in the first thing that entered my head on GG - 'bike parts' and I got -

Bike Bike Parts, Show Chrome Accessories, Ultra Gard, Hopnel
... the motorcycle enthusiast is looking for. View our 2003 Catalog On-Line
and Contact an Authorized Big Bike Parts Dealer to Order! ...
www.bigbikeparts.com/ - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

bikepartsusa.com - BikePartsUSA.com -- The resource bicycle shop ...
... We have over 9,000 items with over 150 brands to choose from, all at
reasonable prices. We even carry mountain bike parts. Whatever ...
Description: Features a shop by brand search engine, online ordering, pricing, and descriptions of parts and accessories.
Category: Shopping > Sports > Cycling > Components
www.bikepartsusa.com/ - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

for 1 & 2 spots.

or 'cannabis' which gives the first 4 spots -

CANNABIS.COM - Cannabis, Marijuana, and Hemp Information
Marijuana, cannabis, and hemp all describe the same plant cannabis sativa. ... Welcome
to CANNABIS.COM , the most popular cannabis website in the world! ...
Description: Features cannabis FAQs, messsage boards, live chat, pictures, e-zine, news, and links.
Category: Recreation > Drugs > Cannabis
www.cannabis.com/ - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

Cannabis Culture Magazine Online: Marijuana and Hemp Around the ...
... Plastic Smith. Cannabis Culture Magazine, CC Store Subscribe Today! ... Getting high on
pot possibilities at Germany's ganja-business gathering. Cannabis Court Cases, ...
Description: Marijuana and hemp resources and information from a Canadian perspective. Offers books, posters, t-shirts...
Category: Shopping > Recreation > Drugs > Cannabis
www.cannabisculture.com/ - 42k - Cached - Similar pages

Cannabis News - marijuana, hemp, and cannabis news
Marijuana, cannabis, and hemp all describe the same plant cannabis sativa.
Our mission is ... Cannabis News, Change Attitude. Posted by CN ...
Description: Marijuana, cannabis, and hemp all describe the same plant cannabis sativa. Our mission is to distribute...
Category: Society > Issues > Health > Drugs > Illegal > War on Drugs > News
www.cannabisnews.com/ - 65k - Cached - Similar pages

ChristiansForCannabis
ChristiansForCannabis.Com - Christians working to end the criminalization
of cannabis use. Friday, May 30, 2003. CN ON: Editorial ...
Description: This site contains a view on scripturally valid reasons not to support the War on Drugs.
Category: Society > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity > Issues
www.christiansforcannabis.com/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

I don't think this is just lucky guesses.

#56 kctipton

kctipton

    Ready To Fly Member

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 03:15 PM

>>Curious. Is that official policy or just something that came about?<<

Is lots of scrutiny a policy? You're joking, right?

#57 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 03:27 PM

I very much doubt it's official policy, kc, but I imagine there are guidelines for quick scanning to trigger a heads-up on potentially dodgy sites.

The volume of sites these ODP guys are presented with is phenomenal. I've seen efforts to clear back-logs when meta-editors do bursts on clogged directories. I assume they have internal guidelines which allow them a quick sort of the wheat from the chaff.

#58 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 03:35 PM

I assume they have internal guidelines which allow them a quick sort of the wheat from the chaff.


And whether the domain is hyphenated or not should not be included among those guidelines. You might as well pay extra scrutiny to domains starting with an "S", an "O" or a "V".

#59 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 03:40 PM

Or SOB :D

#60 Advisor

Advisor

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 1142 posts

Posted 07 June 2003 - 07:55 PM

I'm sure they don't red flag a domain that has one hyphen, but if I were a search engine, you can bet I'd flag (for further scrutiny) a domain that had 4 hyphens.

I doubt anyone but SEOs use those.

Jill

#61 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 04:33 AM

Jill, can you clarify. I can see no sensible reason to flag on hyphenation.

The single hyphen goes without saying. All decent domain names have long since been snapped up or squatted; hyphens are the natural next best (and there will no doubt be litigation in this area from those firms whose domains - betterseosolutions, etc - are aggrieved that better-seo-solutions pops up. Where does one draw the line?).

A little thought process. I have a wood sculpture friend. I look around for a domain but woodsculpture.com has gone. I use inordinate quantities of mental stimulants and, after much sneezing, I come up with wood-sculpture.everything and buy 'em up.

I do this because it is commonsense (not the specialist white powder - that's just expensive. I prefer natural cognitive focusing agents like my partner's tricky questions: have you done the lawns? when are you coming to bed? do you mind if I buy this? they're not too big are they? - all of which dictate a ridiculous level of distraction and pre-emptive reasoning) and, quite a part form an innate duty to myself and client (albeit my friend, chum, associate, pest), it says Hello Algorithm, Guess what this Site is all about and Dear now more savvy surfer, Yes there probably is a site about wood sculpture whose domain name is hyphenated.

My duty to myself, client and Internet is to do the best I can. Using hyphens, as mentioned in a prior thread post, makes it easier for me to eyeball had-crafted sites under development (and I'm letting a little opportunity to justify negative discrimination in here - because it's conceivable that the latest automated site building database software incorporates hyphens when spawning sitelets) and helps both engine and surfer return accurate query results.

Would anybody else like a nice cup of tea?

#62 motsa

motsa

    Unlurked Energy

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 05:45 AM

Personally, when I think of hyphenated domains that make my hackles go up, it's usually something like buy-phentermine-buy-viagra-cheap-cheap-cheap-drugs.com (have no idea if that's a real domain but wouldn't that make you sit up and go "Hmmmmm.", too?). Of course buyphenterminebuyviagracheapcheapcheapdrugs.com would have the same rousing effect but you don't see that quite so often.

#63 DianeV

DianeV

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 7216 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 05:52 AM

Hi enigma. I don't "do" tea; I "do" coffee ... but I'll gladly sit and sip.

If I could put in a word here:

We've seen (or read) over the years that DMOZ is swamped with submissions and that, in some categories, the majority are spam of one kind or another: tricked-up doorway pages, "websites" that are really a masked doorway for another site, multiple sites by the same company for the same product but with the identity of the real owner hidden, ad infinitum. I would guess that some of these are cleverly done and take some time or expertise to distinguish, if it were me, I'd get a little edgy after a while of dealing with this kind of thing.

I gather from what has been said by DMOZ editors that one of the dead giveaways for such sites is the super-hyphenated-domain-name. That being the case, it would make sense that they'd take notice when coming across one; it's understandable under the circumstances, no?

That does not mean that your long-hyphenated-domain-name.com or can't-find-a-shorter-domain-name.com is one of these types of sites; it means that they may look at it a little closer than another site.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it much at all. While there may well be marketing reasons to use hyphenated domain names, it's just something to know that this issue could cause a bit of a red flag. (Then again, there may be all kinds of red flags that we don't know about.) But I would take the time to ensure that the site itself doesn't appear spammy, has good unique content, and whatever else you'd do had you obtained a shorter domain name.

We might also consider how fast submissions might be processed at DMOZ if there were no spam or "trick" submissions. I don't even want to know how much research and/or experience it takes to be able to detect these easily. To me, it would be a slap in the face to receive one of these submissions, and I-would-be-really-uptight.com. :D

IANADE = I am not a DMOZ Editor.

<rewording>

#64 DianeV

DianeV

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 7216 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 05:53 AM

Oops; just saw motsa's post. So the domain names are that long. Whoa.

#65 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 06:27 AM

and I-would-be-really-uptight.com

:D
No disputing the garbage these guys have to field.

I contemplated applying for DMOZ editorship (in the days when I had this stuff called spare-time and enthusiasm and could offer consistent support) but wondered about the inherent conflict of interest as a webmaster and SEO (Silly Eager Optimist). I thus considered other categories - birds: parrots, astronomy, physics: particle theory, (SEM was rejected since I'd be blackballed from all forums such as this and my drink would be spiked at conventions)...

In truth, I'd like to participate in DMOZ because as an SEO I believe in the Internet as an educational tool and also know first-hand the wonderful satisfaction a struggling webmaster receives when his/her first site appears in DMOZ. I'd just like a little more time in my life.

#66 DianeV

DianeV

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 7216 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 07:07 AM

I know what you mean.

I've thought of applying, but couldn't think of a topic not involving web design, SEO, SEM, etc., that I knew something about and would enjoy building. Oh well ...

#67 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 07:11 AM

What about avatar/logo design? :D

#68 DianeV

DianeV

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 7216 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 07:14 AM

LOL. Too close to home, I'd think.

#69 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 07:19 AM

I was an editor for some time, having found a nice non-commercial category so I could learn all about the issues and processes from the other side.

I found it to be a truly horrendous and disheartening experience in the end. I editted reasonably well, nurturing and building up the category, took part in the editor forum discussions, kept up with policy developments and issues, etc.

However, as I progressed as an editor, feeling that I must in order to help take up some of the hideous burdens placed upon the higher level categories, I became less and less able to tolerate a few things.

The level of abuse, and poor service is high, too high, and this is because there are far too few decent top-level editors, and these few have to police the entire directory with too few resources and for free.

There are quite a few members of staff, but the evidence of what they do for their pay is, well, dwarfed by the efforts of a far fewer yet more efficient group of unpaid editors. To be brutally frank, the staff seemed to do far less than the unpaid amatuers, and often less well too.

My final conclusion, is that DMOZ is absolutely appallingly managed, where the only way it keeps working at all is through the efforts of a dozen or so truly exceptional and devoted unpaid volunteers, and the staff often do more to waste the efforts of those volunteers than empower them.

We are talking about a directory owned by AOL for goodness sake, and there is absolutely no sign of any commitment from the owners to improve quality for either the users or the volunteers.

I quit, and I have never regretted leaving. I felt ashamed to be a part of the terrible service of DMOZ.

#70 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 07:26 AM

To be brutally frank, the staff seemed to do far less than the unpaid amateurs, and often less well too.

Substitute 'staff' with 'management', 'unpaid amateurs' with 'staff' and you have succinctly described the state of Britain's privatised railways ethos.

#71 Advisor

Advisor

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 1142 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 11:23 AM

Jill, can you clarify. I can see no sensible reason to flag on hyphenation.


Hi Enigma,

I'm not sure what kind of clarification you need. I said that I doubt there would be a flag on domains that utilize just one hyphen, as you mentioned in your example. Of course there wouldn't be as domains like that are extremely common and generally have nothing to do with a site being "SEO'd."

But a site with 4 hyphens? Why is that generally done? Because someone somewhere believes it will help their search engine positioning, either in DMOZ, Google or where ever.

Isn't this just common sense?

Jill

#72 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 11:33 AM

Being a bit long-in-the-tooth (in this business) and no boubt better informed through various inbound industry alerts and news feeds, I thought you might have had a better, perhaps more informed angle on this.

#73 Advisor

Advisor

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 1142 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 12:02 PM

Being a bit long-in-the-tooth (in this business) and no boubt better informed through various inbound industry alerts and news feeds, I thought you might have had a better, perhaps more informed angle on this.


Nope, after all these years, I still base much of what I say on good old fashioned common sense. But I always qualify it as such. My own opinion based on what I would do if I were a search engine programmer, or whatever.

Jill

#74 enigma

enigma

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 330 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 12:07 PM

Ah, ok. Cheers, Jill.

#75 JohnScott

JohnScott

    Mach 1 Member

  • Members
  • 350 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 05:23 PM

We are talking about a directory owned by AOL for goodness sake, and there is absolutely no sign of any commitment from the owners to improve quality for either the users or the volunteers.

I quit, and I have never regretted leaving.  I felt ashamed to be a part of the terrible service of DMOZ.


Damn good post. I see way too few professionals with the cojones to speak the truth.

Yes, there are some great editors, and I appreciate what they do for the rest of us. The ODP is the best web directory out there for the time being. But it is also a total shame that AOL isn't taking the responsibility of ownership seriously.

#76 sanity

sanity

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 6889 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 06:36 PM

Welcome to Cre8 motsa. :wink:

#77 kctipton

kctipton

    Ready To Fly Member

  • Members
  • 36 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 09:02 PM

This is seriously starting to sound like a visit to the XODP Yahoo group or even Webmasterworld. :cry:

#78 BillSlawski

BillSlawski

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 15644 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 09:48 PM

kctipton

I think we'd rather be part of a solution than part of the problem.

Any suggestions on what we can do in a positive manner? That's an open question to anyone.

#79 Black_Knight

Black_Knight

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 9339 posts

Posted 08 June 2003 - 09:54 PM

This is seriously starting to sound like a visit to the XODP Yahoo group or even Webmasterworld. :cry:


I most sincerely hope this doesn't resemble the discussions in the XODP Yahoo Group except on a most superficial level (that in neither place do we claim that the ODP is perfect). I have no sympathy at all for those who have attempted to abuse DMOZ for their own selfish needs and given little in return. That is, after all, the basis of my complaint against AOL and Netscape in this.

I certainly don't blame the editors for the problems of DMOZ. The problems with DMOZ are that it absolutely depends on selfless altruistic devotion, ongoing dependable acts of selfless giving, when any realist will tell you that the very existance of a truly selfless act in the singular, never mind on a daily basis, is of questionable existance. :)

DMOZ seeks to attract editors with the promise that they can make a difference, but it makes it far too hard to do. There are a lot of responsibilities, a huge amount of internal politics, a lot of abuse that the average editor is powerless to prevent, and little if any recognition. Those are facts.

We all know that in the real world, dmoz attracts far too many applications from those who seek to further their own sites, to impose their own ideas, or quite fancy being important, but will lack the ongoing commitment needed. Isn't it still the case that less than 5% of editor applications are deemed suitable for even serious consideration?

There are literally hundreds of very good dedicated editors who really care for the directory, not just for itself, but for its place within the larger online community. There are literally thousands of poorly motivated, couldn't-care-less editors. Trying to police it all are a very few editalls. Maths alone tells you what happens too often.

There are editors who think nothing about how the titles and descriptions used in DMOZ actually affect its usefullness as data for Google, AOL, etc. These are not all junior editors. Yet the actual usefullness of DMOZ depends upon these things, and that which is not usefull, doesn't tend to survive.

I don't believe that DMOZ is any worse than the Yahoo directory (except that I can pay for priority consideration in Yahoo, and be treated better), but I think it is so much less than it was supposed to be, and could easily be so much more than it has ever been.

How often have I heard editors make comments that translate to: "What do you expect for nothing?" and "Its free, so be grateful for whatever you get", but doesn't that really translate to "Its only good because its free"?

When will we invariably get the kind of service given that is worth more than the price tag of nothing?

When will the management of DMOZ start actively helping to attract and retain great editors? (And I don't mean the editors who pay to be there, listing only their own stuff, and treated as a different class of editor, via the Content Partners Scheme).

When will AOL realise that DMOZ is worth a lot more, and start bothering to provide the commitment that it should get?

#80 Jean_Manco

Jean_Manco

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 1035 posts

Posted 09 June 2003 - 05:04 PM

Hi Ammon. I was sorry that you left the ODP. You were an asset. But I see that you have found other ways to give back to the community. :) This forum looks good to me.

I won't try to say that the ODP is perfect, but perhaps it should be said that it serves the searcher, not the webmaster. The webmaster or SEO promoting another site selling pink spotted widgets may feel deeply frustrated if said site is not promptly listed, but the searcher may be perfectly happy with the 15 sites selling pink spotted widgets that are listed. :wink:



RSS Feed

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users