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When cre8asiteforums rhymes with generosity...


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#1 Nadir

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 08:37 PM

I just gave recommendations to a client today who was more than delighted: first because he got good advices on how to optimize his site but also because he's learning SEO in the mean time, for future changes that he will do himself.

I don't want to give you a copy of the recommendations that I wrote here as it's kind of private, but I can tell you that the things that I wrote are not really different from the advices given by generous members here to people who need help or guidance.

I know approximately how much my company charges, and I don't care about what people are going to think about what I'm going to say - it's not my business, and I'm not making a fortune, I'm just with them to learn SEO - but you can get as much valuable information from the members here at cre8asite, and probably in many other forums.

It's sad to say, but a client is going to pay a few hundreds bucks just to know that he needs a url_rewriting...while they could just have had an answer here, for free, that will have had helped them improve their traffic sometimes dramatically.

But the posts that I saw here are really the best anyone can get online or even off-line, even after spending big money.

So, I just wanted to congratulate everyone here and also remind all the members how fortunate they are to get priceless advices and also encourage them to thank those who are supporting them, for free...

Edited by Nadir, 02 February 2006 - 08:49 PM.


#2 BillSlawski

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 09:44 PM

Thanks, Nadir.

When we share with others here, we all have the chance to learn from each other.

And sometimes the best information isn't sharing knowledge, but rather a fresh perspective. That can be really invaluable.

#3 randfish

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 11:21 PM

I think I've referred at least 3 dozen folks here in the last month who were asking about getting work done on their sites. It's the best thing to do for folks who have a very limited budget, yet clearly need and deserve assistance. After all, the forums are where I learned almost everything I know about SEO (plus a little trial and error, some conferences and experience), so it's only fair to give back.

#4 Nadir

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 12:17 AM

Yeah I will refer people here too, definitely, is there some kind affiliate programs or something? :D

(Just kidding, of course! :P )

#5 tommr

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 02:54 AM

I have to say people here seem to be really helpfull.
And even when it seems there is no answer to a hard question
at least there are ideas about which way to find the answers.

#6 JohnMu

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 03:19 AM

I've been sending people here since I joined :P. I think there's no other forum out there with such a fine group of people. I haven't found a single forum that has the same divers areas of "hard knowledge" (ie things that work, not things that "I think should maybe possibly work but perhaps they break everything else") and such manners! :D

John

#7 FP_Guy

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 07:23 AM

I know in the beginning when I was learning it has hard who to trust on anything and went with the majority until I had learned more.

And definately the community of learning from eachother by exchanging ideas, web links, software reviews (does this forum have a software review?), helped out a great deal.

Just have to milk out the ones that believe everything they hear.

#8 phaithful

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 03:14 PM

It's sad to say, but a client is going to pay a few hundreds bucks just to know that he needs a url_rewriting...while they could just have had an answer here, for free, that will have had helped them improve their traffic sometimes dramatically.

Not to detract from the praises (and believe me I'm thankful every day for Cre8aSite Forums), but I'd say most clients aren't interested in spending the amount of time and effort searching the forums to find the "free" information. Many clients simply would rather pay a set fee.

Just like any other consulting service or outsourcing, you can probably do most of the tasks in house... but do the costs and time justify doing it in house or is it simply easier and faster to outsource it.

Ok enough of that.... Cre8aSite is AWESOME! I'd be so lost without this place. :cheers:

#9 Adrian

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 07:17 PM

you can probably do most of the tasks in house... but do the costs and time justify doing it in house or is it simply easier and faster to outsource it.


That was one of the main pet peeves of mine at my last workplace though phaithful. They didn't really understand the cost of my time in looking up loads of stuff, and the other things that didn't then get done because of it. Paying someone with the knowledge (and I'm not talking about the web so much here) would have been quicker, and possibly cheaper overall.
But no, they always wanted me to look into things and to try and do it myself!

of course, paying people for things has it's downsides as well, loss of control, potential for being ripped off, many so called experts aren't very expert....

Forums like these have their place to some people who would otherwise be clients of the type of professionals here.

folks who have a very limited budget, yet clearly need and deserve assistance


For many of those people, it's easier for them to spend the time than the hard cash....

I know what ya mean though :)

Just about everything I know about web design is at least indirectly related to finding Kim's little part of the web a scary 6 years ago now! I learnt so much in the first 6 months it was well worth the time invesment to me at the time. Of course each 6 months since then has been similarly useful :D

#10 tommr

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 03:24 PM

I can only speak to our situation...
When we first went online with our web site in 1998 we had never heard of SEO.
We simply put up a clean site and Alta Vista and Google were the main search engines.
We did not need to learn much other than HTML and that was it.
Now the last 2 years we came up fairly well in all the search engines but as the internet became more competitive it became harder and harder to place well.
This is partly do to the fact that becase we placed well we did not feel the burning need to keep on top of things.

SO because we are a small company and we had always done for our selves I searched for the reason why we were not placing as well as I had hoped and that is how I ended up in these forums.

Along the way we have made use of consulting when it was not too expensive but we are just making a living and do not have the money to hire this out.

When I first came to seo forums I honstly thought that the people here were others in my situation with the ability to understand and learn but without the means to hire the work done out of house.
I guess it never occured to me that the professionals would spend there time giving free information away.

But then it dawned on me that probably the professionals would gain from the free exchange of information as not all SEO firms are giant companies with many coders, writers, testers and techs on hand.
These big companies charge tens of thousands of dollars for their work and many small companies can not afford to use this type of service.

It became clear that not all small business like mine have the desire to learn to do for them selves and they need to rely on less expensive alternatives such as the 1 or 2 or 3 man seo firm to help them out.
Likewise the small 1 or 2 or 3 man firm needs the experience of other small firms to learn what they may not have time to test.

Forums though seem to differ as to the level of cooperation. With out a doubt in some forums there are plenty of tricks and techniques traded behind the screen of personal messages between members of "the club".

What this whole thing is leading up to is that I thought that this forum seems to be the most friendly and the most truly helpfull of the 3 or 4 others I visit.

Although I have my week points I feel I do have something to offer and my goal is to spend as much time in boards where I may be of help as I spend in the SEO boards, gasping for air.

#11 Black_Knight

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:14 PM

But then it dawned on me that probably the professionals would gain from the free exchange of information as not all SEO firms are giant companies with many coders, writers, testers and techs on hand.

In my experience, there is more genuine research done by small, even one-person SEO businesses than by the medium and larger SEO companies.

Too often the larger companies have absolutely zero budget or commitment to R&D, and believe that time is far more profitably spent in sales pitches. I know several of the larger UK SEO companies very well, and don't know any of them to have any real commitment to research. Most will happily commit to researching/developing new tools, some marketing statistics, yet completely dismiss the idea of setting up a network of test sites, and performing serious research on search algorithms in use, and specific techniques for ranking well in them.

Traditionally, the bigger SEO companies are the ones that depend the most on reading the forums (if even that much) as their sole channel for learning new techniques, researching patents, or discovering what changes in an algo. You are right that they are the least likely to post or share anything useful. You were simply mistaken in your guess at the reasons.

However, that has all been changing over the past couple of years.

Most SEO forums now feature very little discussion of actual techniques and tricks that work well enough to be used by the pros. The reason for that is that publishing a trick is the fastest way of killing it, so if you are an SEO with a trick that is actually worth much, you'd be a fool to give it away, and even if you did, you'd have made an enemy of all the other SEOs who were using the same trick, and now have just months to find a new one.

Not all forums fall into that mould of course. Here at Cre8asite, and also at HighRankings, and elsewhere too, we have always tended to avoid the 'trick' approach to SEO and instead focus on the basic principles from which you can build a stable position that needs no 'tricks'.

In a forum like this, we also do what we can to give you the founding knowledge to research your own tricks and techniques. The only kind of SEO that can be effectively shared in forums is the type that is not dependant on specific techniques, and certainly not on specific code.

Why? Because just as you read this now, you can safely bet that competitors of yours, for the same big money search terms, have read, or will read it. Any "step 1, 2, 3" approach would therefore cease to be a USP immediately. You'd all do the same, and thus negate any edge from doing it at all.

So instead what you'll see from me is tips, pointers, and questions to help you find your own plan, based on your own work. That way it is yours, and tied to your own USP and unique situation. By creating a need for you to think, not just copy, I create a barrier to competition for the techniques I hopefully help guide you towards.


For certain, a lot of questions that I'm paid to consult on are also ones I have and will happily answer for free right here. But the benefits of consultancy are that I can also do that original thinking for them - give them a precise plan without fear that competitors will be hearing me explain it and copying the idea even before my client has implemented it.

In addition, a number of SEO companies over the years have employed me as a consultant. One of the first to do so explained the reason perfectly: "We could devote 30+ man-hours each week to keeping up with all the stuff you do, or we can hire you for one hour to chat with us and get the same info."

So long as it is cheaper to talk to me for an hour or two than to employ a reasonably skilled researcher to trawl through forums, papers, studies, and run their own studies and test sites just to get the same qualified answers, I'm guaranteed to be the smart businessman's choice. :D

#12 tommr

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:39 PM

Quite well put and well taken.

#13 Nadir

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 07:45 PM

You're right, well said. I know someone who has been hired by a company to do SEO in-house and they basically pay (and asked) him to keep an eye on search engine trends and see what people are saying on forums :ph34r:

#14 manager

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:02 PM

Speaking as someone who knows virtually nothing about SEO, but very keen to learn. I find Cre8 very useful, up to a point.

I have witnessed widely differing viewpoints expressed by different people regarded as experts. This makes it difficult for newbies like me to know whose viewpoint to accept.

I am not about to accept anyone’s views as gospel, simply because they express their views more forcefully and, articulately than the next expert.

I hasten to add, that I find cre8 useful for other topics. In case anyone thinks I was kocking Cre8 :(

TreV

#15 Black_Knight

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:18 PM

I have witnessed widely differing viewpoints expressed by different people regarded as experts. This makes it difficult for newbies like me to know whose viewpoint to accept.

Answer: your viewpoint.

No other's viewpoint should be adopted until it has become (usually through testing) your own. That doesn't mean that one dismisses all viewpoints of course, but rather means that you may have to accept them all as potentially equally valid from the precise position from which that viewpoint originates.

As time passes, you learn which 'experts' have a viewpoint from a position that most closely resembles your own, and can consider accepting those on faith. :(

#16 dgeary9

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 07:29 PM

Actually, one of the things I really like about this forum is that the experts are willing to put a serious depth of explanation into their answers, which equips me to think for myself and figure out what will fit best with my particular site. I'd far rather that than have them all agree :(.



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