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Does SEO=SPAM?


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#121 sanity

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 04:58 PM

Thanks, Peter D.

I would think so, however I guess just the title of SEO: Search Engine Optimizer (does it still stand for this :?: ) tends to "seem" limiting. That's my point, I think :(

Good point Jim.

As an industry we've debated long and hard to find a better title as SEO really doesn't do it - for me at least. So far no ones found one. :cry:

#122 JimZim

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:02 PM

As an industry we've debated long and hard to find a better title as SEO really doesn't do it - for me at least. So far no ones found one.  :cry:


Sounds like the topic of a new thread! Has one been dedicated/devoted to this lately? I don't recall seeing anything as I have been moving through this entire forum.

Thanks.

#123 sanity

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:08 PM

Sounds like the topic of a new thread! Has one been dedicated/devoted to this lately? I don't recall seeing anything as I have been moving through this entire forum.

Nope not that I know of. It would be a great thread - go start it! Personally I'm struggling with this issue myself at the moment as I'm not really a traditional SEO.

#124 peter_d

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:09 PM

It's one component of online marketing, just like newspaper ads are a component of offline marketing.

I think the important thing to remember, as Sophie points out, is that SEO is a small part of a bigger picture. Traffic, rankings, optimisation is meaningless (and worthless) unless it satisfies a marketing objective.

<rant>I think a good seo will be proactive in ensuring their campaign supports the clients wider marketing objectives. Many SEO's don't even appear to consider it! It gets my back up to see clueless seo's suggesting expensive web sites compromise their brands and site integrity in favour of their own ugly, poorly conceived solutions. A good seo integrates</rant>

Ah, feel better now.... :(

#125 sanity

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:13 PM

<rant>I think a good seo will be proactive in ensuring their campaign supports the clients wider marketing objectives. Many SEO's don't even appear to consider it! It gets my back up to see clueless seo's suggesting expensive web sites compromise their brands and site integrity in favour of their own ugly, poorly conceived solutions. </rant>  

Ah, feel better now.... :(

Well said Peter. 8)

I also can't see the point of having high rankings if you're website's a dog's breakfast.

Integration of design, usability, SEO and marketing is definitely the way to go.

#126 JimZim

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:13 PM

<rant>I think a good seo will be proactive in ensuring their campaign supports the clients wider marketing objectives. Many SEO's don't even appear to consider it! It gets my back up to see clueless seo's suggesting expensive web sites compromise their brands and site integrity in favour of their own ugly, poorly conceived solutions. </rant>


Shouldn't that be
Rant ! rant
:(

#127 JimZim

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:15 PM

I also can't see the point of having high rankings if you're  
website's a dog's breakfast.


Unless you are marketing dog food :(

#128 sanity

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 05:16 PM

I also can't see the point of having high rankings if you're  
website's a dog's breakfast.


Unless you are marketing dog food :P

Quite right. :(

#129 Black_Knight

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 11:40 PM

Would you say that it almost makes someone in the SEO game think they are an online marketing professional...


... or even an Internet Marketing Consultant. :(

#130 Black_Knight

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Posted 10 December 2002 - 11:48 PM

All SEO aims to get a site noticed. How is this not marketing?


Well, there is a difference between promotion and marketing.

Promotion (and advertising) is mainly about getting the word out there, while marketing is more about phrasing the word you'll later promote. :(

Marketing is about bringing a product to market, which therefore also includes market analysis, demographics, and knowing the market.

Promotion is then a tool of marketing, carrying the message and information about the product to the target market(s) which marketing identified.

#131 BillSlawski

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 01:43 AM

On my blog I have this subhead:  

"Search Engine Optimization is akin to shooting darts at a dartboard with a moving center."


It's a similar thought to Bill's. The reason I wrote mine is really close to Bill's too. It's not JUST SEO alone that's required for end user success, but the elements Bill noted as well, and more.


That phrase definitely rubbed off on me. :(

As have the ideas over the last few years. Thanks, Kim!

#132 cre8pc

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 09:45 AM

That phrase definitely rubbed off on me.  
As have the ideas over the last few years. Thanks, Kim!


Thank you!!

I love your mind too :wink:

Kim

#133 BillSlawski

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 07:55 PM

That makes it mutual :wink:

I suspect we're getting a little off topic. SEO? What's that?

#134 cre8pc

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 07:35 AM

I suspect we're getting a little off topic. SEO? What's that?


If anyone reads this far (to page eight), I doubt they even care anymore! :wink:

Besides, with Jill traveling this week, and Ammon on the road too, Phil's probably letting his keyboard cool down... :shock:

heh heh

K.

#135 Adrian

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 07:51 AM

Well I would think with 133 replies this is officially the longest thread on the boards? Probably in Cre8pc forums history!!

Along with the other discussion on the subject prior to Google's new info I would say its a pretty hot topic!!

#136 Guest_PhilC_*

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 07:56 AM

Not quite Adrian, but it's getting there. "Google being unscrupulous?" is just ahead at 139.

#137 Adrian

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:01 AM

DOH, well if you include the other thread its miles ahead :) But i guess some of that was repeated, heh

#138 Guest_PhilC_*

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:07 AM

No it's not. When this is posted, this thread will be only 2 behind. The other one is thousands ahead in views though.

#139 BillSlawski

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:11 AM

Along with the other discussion on the subject prior to Google's new info I would say its a pretty hot topic!!


I think that maybe it's just the first round. Don't know if any of you have had the chance to see the latest Wired Magazine. I skimmed through it at the local news stand, and may pick up a copy. It has this story, which isn't available online until the 18th:

Google vs. Evil -- Available online - December 18, 2002
The world's biggest, best-loved search engine owes its success to a simple rule: Don't be evil. Now the geek icon is finding that moral compromise is just the cost of doing big business.
By Josh McHugh


From what I saw, it's a well written article, and a little bit of a powderkeg.

#140 peter_d

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 05:16 PM

a little bit of a powderkeg.


Do tell.

#141 sanity

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 06:09 PM

From what I saw, it's a well written article, and a little bit of a powderkeg.

Sounds like a good read Bill. is that the Jan issue?

#142 cre8pc

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 07:45 PM

Yes, please run back out into the freezing cold and ice to get the print issue and type in the best parts for us, pretty please Bill? 8)

Or, if you prefer to stay warm and cuddly, I guess we can wait for January... :cry:

Here's the teaser...http://www.wired.com.../archive/11.01/

Does sound like a good read. We have something to look forward to. Heck, we could even start a new thread! :shock:

Kim

#143 peter_d

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 07:50 PM

Yes, please run back out into the freezing cold and ice to get the print issue and type in the best parts for us, pretty please Bill?


Yeah, go on Bill. In the interest of solidarity, I too will go outside and endure the weather here (Sophie, shut-up :)

#144 sanity

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 07:59 PM

Yeah, go on Bill. In the interest of solidarity, I too will go outside and endure the weather here (Sophie, shut-up :)

Moi make a rude comment about your weather Peter, I'd never be so cruel. :twisted:

#145 peter_d

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:01 PM

Actually, I was thinking "don't let on it's summer down here and it's currently a spectacular day out"

DOH! :oops:

#146 sanity

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:06 PM

Actually, I was thinking "don't let on it's summer down here and it's currently a spectacular day out"  

DOH!  :oops:

:oops: :oops: DOH indeed. I thought you were referring to the fact our weather is so much better than yours.

#147 peter_d

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:13 PM

I thought you were referring to the fact our weather is so much better than yours.


For those who don't know, Australia is a penal colony. A very hot one. Must be torture breaking those rocks.... 8)

#148 sanity

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:15 PM

For those who don't know, Australia is a penal colony. A very hot one. Must be torture breaking those rocks....  8)


New Zealand is that small island most of you have probably never seen as it's always covered in cloud. :shock:

#149 peter_d

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:21 PM

New Zealand is that small island most of you have probably never seen as it's always covered in cloud


It's three Island's. Actually, there's thousands of Islands, but no one gives a toss about most them. Especially that big, largely deserted one over there. What's it called? Aust....Austral....

I forget.

#150 sanity

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 08:26 PM

It's three Island's. Actually, there's thousands of Islands, but no one gives a toss about most them. Especially that big, largely deserted one over there. What's it called? Aust....Austral....

I forget.


Must be old age... :)

#151 BillSlawski

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Posted 12 December 2002 - 10:10 PM

OK, what did I miss?

I just ran back out into the freezing cold and ice to get the print issue so that I could type in the best parts for you (now how could I disappoint Kim?)

I'll have to read it more closely, but it covers a lot of ground, including Scientology, John Malkovitch, google-watch.org, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, international censorship and a possible compromise with China, filtering results in Germany and France, SearchKing, a Google IPO, the Google dance, SEOs, and more.

The following is not Sergey Brin's quote. The words are not his. The author of the article writes: "In general, optimizers make a living by guessing what Google regards as important. The way Brin sees it, the optimizers are co-opting Google's bond of trust with its users. He regards optimizers the way a mother grizzly might regard a hunter jabbing at her cub with a stick." As I said, the author's words and not Brin's. The quote is taken out of context, and really shouldn't be. It might be good to wait until the article is available online for a thread about it, so that people can see it as a whole first.

Disclaimer: I have not received any monies to write about Wired's article, nor do I own any stock in the company.

Further disclaimer: I have no reason to disrespect Google. I have never been penalized by them, and have, to the best of my knowledge, never given them a reason to penalize me.

Even further disclaimer: I would read the whole article tonight and comment more, but I have to make some goodies for a christmas party (and stand near the warm stove to get some heat, in this cold, cold, Northern Hemisphere)

New Zealand is that small island most of you have probably never seen as it's always covered in cloud.


What I've seen looked lovely. (LOTR)

#152 peter_d

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 12:14 AM

Thanks for battling the snow for us, Bill.

The way Brin sees it, the optimizers are co-opting Google's bond of trust with its users. He regards optimizers the way a mother grizzly might regard a hunter jabbing at her cub with a stick


RALMAO. Finally!

I have not received any monies to write about Wired's article, nor do I own any stock in the company


RALMAO (again). Quite, Bill. Wouldn't want to blow your blogger credibility :)

What I've seen looked lovely. (LOTR)


Indeed. Had to battle a few Orcs on the way home from work tonight, but that's the price you pay for living in Middle Earth.

#153 enigma

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 09:44 AM

I gave up reading after 50 posts.

Now look. SEO is what we do.

There are people in this world who wish to make money
There are people in this world who wish to make an impact
There are people in this world who wish to make...who try to make sense of it.

SEO is a profession like any other, and you get good guys and bad guys - just like accountants.

Can't we kill this thread as it's boring.

We all know the bloody answer: just get on with it.

#154 peter_d

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 05:24 PM

Now look. SEO is what we do.


Some do.

There are people in this world who wish to make money


There are people in this world who wish to make chocolate.

SEO is a profession like any other, and you get good guys and bad guys - just like accountants.


True.

We all know the bloody answer: just get on with it


Not with you. How does that answer the question "Does seo=spam"?
More importantly, and the basis of the question, how does Google feel about SEOs?

Personally, I'm getting mixed messages.

<edit>spellink currectshun</edit>

#155 Advisor

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 05:49 PM

How does that answer the question "Does seo=spam"?
More importantly, and the basis of the question, what does Google feel about SEOs?  

Personally, I'm hearing mixed messages.

Peter, in Dallas yesterday at the SES conference's "Spam Police" session, I so wanted to ask your question to the panelists to see what they would say. Unfortunately, there were so many others asking questions, that I didn't have a chance. :cry: I'm sure it would have been interesting to hear their answers. (Including Greg Boser who was also on the panel.)

Jill

There are people in this world who wish to make chocolate.

Hey! I resemble that remark! :mad:

#156 peter_d

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 07:05 PM

yesterday at the SES conference's "Spam Police" session


LOL They had a "spam police" session? Were they giving out badges? :)

It would have been interesting to hear their answers. This Wired article also sounds interesting.

#157 JimZim

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Posted 13 December 2002 - 11:51 PM

Just back from a "help the Aunt and Uncle" few days in San Diego. Pardon me while I take an hour and a half to read all these "posts" :)

#158 cre8pc

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Posted 14 December 2002 - 02:10 PM

I just ran back out into the freezing cold and ice to get the print issue so that I could type in the best parts for you (now how could I disappoint Kim?)


You're such a sweetie, Bill!

When/if you get a chance to excite us with that article, may I suggest you start a new thread for it, for obvious reasons? :wink:

Thanks for being so brave and fighting off the weather for us. Not everyone can live on islands and with kangeroos, ya know?.

Kim

#159 peter_d

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 06:17 PM

http://www.wired.com.../google_pr.html

"It would make things a lot easier for Brin if the world's webmasters would just act as though his site didn't matter, but that's not human nature. There's no way around it - as long as Google remains the search engine of choice, the arms race between Google coders and the hordes of optimizers will go on"

#160 Black_Knight

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 11:46 PM

Well, there are certainly some strong indications in there, but again, lacking definitions of who falls foul of the demarkation.

It seems that while we ask Does SEO=Spam, Brin instead is asking Does SEO=Evil, and indeed, he seems to feel that anyone deliberately manipulating results (beyond making sites search friendly) is paving the road to hell (perhaps with the good intentions that are traditionally said to provide such paving).

I ask Brin to imagine, for a moment, running his company's evil twin, a sort of anti-Google. "We would be doing things like having advertising that wasn't marked as being paid for. Stuff that violates the trust of the users," he says, describing a site that sounds not unlike the pay-for-placement search site Overture. "Say someone came looking for breast cancer information and didn't know that some listings were paid for with money from drug companies. We'd be endangering people's health."

The anti-Google might also be more amenable to the growing business of "optimization," the altering of Web sites so that they rank higher in search engine results. For a fee, there's help for a Dallas plumber who's unhappy that his site is on the 17th page of results when someone types "Dallas plumber" into Google. An optimizer will tweak the site in such a way that boosts it to, say, the 3rd page of results.


There we have the crux of the problem SEs will always have with SEO. SEO is the art of gaining a position in the rankings that was otherwise unmerited. Even were SEOs mostly ethical folks who'd never promote a commercial site for terms that are clearly public interest, there'd always be a sort of black-market - where anyone can buy high rankings for a price.

Google refuse all alcohol and tobacco advertising, naturally including AdWords campaigns. Google also rejects advertisers whose links take Google users to pages that feature pop-ups (which caused quite a stir). The question is though, can an SEO make a nonsense of that through optimising such company's sites for Google rankings? If offered hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, how many SEOs would refuse?

And so, we have Google seeing evil in SEO, and seeing that even the most ethical SEOs are paving that road to hell, by showing methods and possibilities to all others.

Every month, when Google updates its index and its mix of algorithms, it rakes a disruptive claw across the optimizers' systems. In the industry, the monthly shuffle is known as the Google Dance, and Brin doesn't mind letting on that if Google ends up dancing all over the optimizers, so much the better. "When we change and improve our technology, things get shuffled around," Brin says, "and sometimes it has a disproportionate effect on optimization sites."


the real problem with Massa is that he's simply the termite Brin is able to see. There are thousands more behind the wall, invisibly boring away at the very structure of Google's house. "It's easy to become overly obsessed with those kinds of things," Brin admits.





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