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#1 optisite

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Posted 15 December 2003 - 10:31 PM

I have a main URL and a hyphenated URL.
ex: anyname.com and anyname-hugesubcategory.com

In my opinion, about a year and a half ago, the second site had to be seperated by hyphens not only for the needed keyword seperation/rankings from this at the time, but also to help ensure it would be listed by Yahoo (not operating just under the same business 'hat'.)

a) Question is, are Google serps and Yahoo now starting to eliminate URLS with single hyphens for modest keyword result searches as it seems, for double hyphenated names? (I ask because I'm finally able to submit to Yahoo, but would like to know if any clear pattern to exclude single hyphenated names is taking shape.)

B) Also, does anybody know if Yahoo requires that a second different physical address be listed on a second related site before they will list it?

#2 Still Waters

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 11:53 AM

a) Question is, are Google serps and Yahoo now starting to eliminate URLS with single hyphens for modest keyword result searches as it seems, for double hyphenated names?


In the longrun, It doesn't make sense that Google would eliminate URLs just due to hyphens. If a web page is highly optimized for a particular phrase, and if the relevancy of that web page's content matches that particular phrase, then Google's algorithm had better serve it to the end user.

After all, Google stays in business only as long as they serve up highly relevant searches for the end users. Otherwise, people will migrate to another search engine that does serve up highly relevant results.

When you see "Google behavior" that seems to penalize hyphenated domains or web pages, that's more likely a temporary phenomenon, as Google tweaks its algorithm, IMHO. After every Google update, I've seen webmasters go crazy if their pages go down. And all sorts of theories are spawned. But, the bottom line is Google is still a business that has to serve a quality product to its customers, in order to stay in business.

Remember, there are live humans behind the Google algorithm, and they're prone (by virtue of being human) to sometimes make mistakes -- and to sometimes tweak the algorithm one direction, with unintended consequences popping up in another direction.

My best advice is just stay focused on longtime proven optimization practices. Don't follow the latest theories. Patience is a winning quality for anyone optimizing for Google.

B) Also, does anybody know if Yahoo requires that a second different physical address be listed on a second related site before they will list it?

Sorry, I don't know much at all about Yahoo.

#3 compar

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 12:24 PM

Question is, are Google serps and Yahoo now starting to eliminate URLS with single hyphens for modest keyword result searches as it seems, for double hyphenated names?

Where did you hear or get any evidence to support that statement? I think it is 100% incorrect. Immediately after Nov 16 there were many sites ranking #1 in Google for very competitive keywords that had two or more hypens in the domain names.

I just did a search on 'online pharmacy'. That is a very competitive term and one that suffered badly from the Florida update. Two of the top ten sites in this search have domain names which include two hypens.

There is another active thread on this subject. You might want to look at http://www.cre8asite...der=asc&start=0

#4 optisite

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 11:35 PM

My best advice is just stay focused on longtime proven optimization practices

I couldn't agree with you more.

[As an example of their recent updates, I've noticed some serps including basically the same URL having many subdomains filling up many of the positions for some of my phrases.]An alternaive to serps has to be found for these times. My site as are many are shut out by this practice.

#5 compar

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 10:53 AM

My best advice is just stay focused on longtime proven optimization practices.

I have problems with that type of advice today. First there is no universal or standard set of "longtime proven optimization practices". So what exactly would someone stay focused on?

Ok links and content are still important, but the specific details of what works with each is really up for grabs.

While we certainly do not know exactly what Google did on Nov 16 and since, it is clear that sites that followed too slavishly some of the most common SEO forumlas -- repetition of exact keyword phrases and unreasonably high keyword density -- were demoted or drop from the rankings.

So IMHO this type of undefined generalized advice is non specific and just maybe wrong.

#6 Mike521

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 11:05 AM

Anyone knoe if google, or any other engines, pick keywords out of a non-hyphenated domain?

Just wondering cause I did a search the other day for some rock climbing info, and the # 1 site was rockclimbing.com. That was to be expected, obviously they're a big site and have a lot of rock climbing info, just wondering if google saw the keywords in their domain name as well.

#7 Grumpus

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 11:17 AM

Holy Smokes - Bob and I agree on something! :lol:

Yup. In my experience, the word "focus" is almost always wrong when it comes to SEO in today's environment. There are simply too many "conditionals" in use today. Technique A is important - but only if Techniques B and C are employed. Technique D doesn't work for Site 1 but does for Site 2 because A,B, and C are on site 2, but not on 1.

And its no longer just a matter of is or isn't a certain technique being used, but there is also a quantative value assigned to it as well.

Mike - Yes - Google seems to be starting to find words within strings - both on-page and in URLs. I suspect that, as I said above, certain other criteria needs to be met before this has any value, though. What's the criteria? I have no idea.

G.

#8 Ron Carnell

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 12:12 PM

Don't be so surprised, G. Bob and I have agreed on a few things in the past. :lol:

But, uh, not this time. At least not completely.

I had a poster in my forums this morning resort to the old "everyone thought the Earth was flat" cliché to demonstrate that truth is a moving target. My response was that we probably shouldn't confuse truth, which very rarely changes, with our perception of truth. Maybe Grumpus' description of the complexity of A, B, C and D is a newly changed truth, but I rather suspect it's just a perception (common to many in these post-Florida times).

Over the last summer, I saw numerous posts in numerous forums that routinely delineated the necessary seven or eight steps to achieving good rankings. Do this, do that three times, then do this twice. Bada bing. It was first year algebra and we all had it wired.

With the purchase of Applied Semantics, it is at least possible that Google went directly from first year algebra to the calculus. But I doubt it. I rather strongly suspect we've gone from first year to second year algebra, maybe trig at the most. The biggest difference is we just don't have it wired. Yet. :)

In first year algebra we are taught that subtracting or adding like quantities from both sides of an equation will never alter the relationships defined in the equation. That's a fundamental Truth that doesn't change, even when we move into trig or calculus. Similarly, the foundations of good SEO that existed this past summer -- if they were True and not just quirks of the algorithm -- must necessarily still be true. The title tag is important not just because Google always said it was, but because the title of the page REALLY does tell us what the page is about. The fundamentals haven't changed, because the fundamentals can't change without destroying function (relevancy).

In short, I think there are still quite a few things upon which we can still focus. The trick (which also hasn't changed) is to stop following recipes and start recognizing WHY an accepted technique worked.

#9 Grumpus

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 12:51 PM

True, true. Most all of the math and semantics and/or stemming and all of the new things we're seeing are in their infant stages. We know where Google wants to go and can extrapolate an possible route toward those goals by looking at the technologies they are employing to get there. Fact is, they are still a long way off from where they want to be.

The "Earth Is Flat" dealio is a bit different than what we are talking about here. The "truth" has always been that Earth is (mostly) spherical. That discovery, as you say, didn't change the truth but changed our perception of it. In this case, the "truth" is the constant.

"The fastest anyone has ever gone in a land vehicle is 633.468 mile per hour." This statement was true between the years of 1983 and 1997. In 1997, some guy name Andy Green from the UK got up to 763.055 miles per hour. (The source for these numbers only goes up to 2001, so this may no longer be the case, I'm not certain). The point is, that in this case, the "control" (Fastest anyone has gone in a land vehicle) is the constant and the truth is a variable.

Certain truths are constants, others are variables. Anyone who's ever been married knows that the truth can also be quantative. "I love you" may be the truth - but some days are better than others. And there can even come the day when it's no longer true at all.

G.

#10 compar

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 01:53 PM

The trick (which also hasn't changed) is to stop following recipes and start recognizing WHY an accepted technique worked.

Then Ron, I would say we do agree in toto. The only problem we have is semantics.

#11 Still Waters

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 04:15 PM

Hmmm. <strokes chin thoughtfully> I did suggest focusing on "longtime proven optimization practices" -- not longtime proven optimization formulae. :lol:

What are those practices? They are, not surprisingly, those practices that are consistent with the fundamental truth behind Google's algorithm.

What is that fundamental truth? IMHO, this is it, in a nutshell:

... Google stays in business only as long as they serve up highly relevant searches for the end users.


How do you know if a web page is relevant? Keywords in title, keywords in content, keywords in inbound and outbound links, keywords in... well, you get the idea. I wonder if I can go so far as to say it's a tautology that "relevant web pages" are served up as "relevant web pages."

Google's behavior may seem "out of whack" at any single point in time. But, its general trajectory is guided by its fundamental truth. That's why patience is a webmaster's best friend.

#12 Ron Carnell

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 07:34 PM

That's why patience is a webmaster's best friend.

The only problem with that philosophy is that it will always be highly subjective. I tell my family all the time that I'm patient.

They insist I'm procrastinating. ;)

#13 compar

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Posted 05 January 2004 - 11:31 PM

How do you know if a web page is relevant? Keywords in title, keywords in content, keywords in inbound and outbound links, keywords in... well, you get the idea.

Yes indeed. That sounds like the "longtime proven optimization formulae" to me.

If you still think its about keywords, keywords, and more keywords you are wrong. It's about relevance and topics and information. Yes this should include the terms that people are searching on, but it should be naturally written and the keywords distributed naturally within the text, not slavishly maintained and duplicated in some exact form.

#14 Grumpus

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 12:09 AM

Yes yes, Bob. Every moment that passes brings the "keywords" aspect of SEO further from "science" and closer to the realm of "art".

And from the other topic, a formula is a tactic, not a principle. (I think you get that based on your last response here, so I'm stating it for everyone else who might not).

G.

#15 Ron Carnell

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 12:53 AM

Ironically, one of the first programs I ever wrote, in MS Basic on a C64, was a version of Eliza. One of the first programs I ever sold, also on the C64 but in 6502 assembly, was a database for processing syllogisms. Plug in a thousand statements, and if two of them were "All humans are mortal" and "Socrates is a human," the program would spit out "Socrates is mortal" in the blink of a digital eye (primitive stemming and all). The program was called Smart Alec, if anyone has an old copy of Commodore Gazette laying around. :)

Semantic analysis has come a long way since those days in the early 1980's, and I wouldn't even pretend to be up to speed on any of it. But you know what? I'm willing to bet that twenty years later it's still more science than art. The rules have changed, perhaps, but never doubt there are still rules that apply. ;)

p.s. This is only slightly off-topic, or perhaps an expansion of the topic, but I am really surprised no one has offered any speculation on this little Google toy. I was reminded of it moments ago when I searched on "elisa program" and Google very correctly asked me if I meant "eliza program." That puppy must be running off so many lists by now that the implications are truly staggering.

#16 Grumpus

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 01:02 AM

ELIZA! I remember her from my Trash-80 Model III days. Fascinating little program. We had a machine that we left running her for about two weeks (if I remember right, you couldn't save the database from session to session? Or something like that, I forget...). Everyone put their own little fingerprint in there with her - many trying to mess her up. For that day and age, it was a pretty amazing program.

I'd forgotten about the Google Sets stuff, too. And that's been up there for at least a year and a half, I think. Definitely longer than I've been here at Cre8asite... Definitely should be something folks have a look at if they want to understand what we're talking about.

G.

#17 Still Waters

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 09:39 AM

Not sure if I'm being misunderstood or I'm misunderstanding you guys.

Using keywords is not a formula. If I had said use 1 kw in title, 3 kw inbound links, at least 1kw outbound link, and so on... then that's a formula. I'm simply stating that we need keywords in our web pages to make them "relevant" for those keywords.

An artist uses blue paint and yellow paint and green paint in subjectively sufficient proportions to communicate the message in a way that makes the artwork relevant to the patron. There's no forumula there. A webmaster's art is similar.

Obviously there are plenty more factors besides keywords, which will determine how far up you rank. Or if you'll get banned from Google, altogether, despite the "relevancy" of your web page. There's common sense in following Google's "do's and don't's".

All in all, IMHO, the principle still stands that Google must serve up relevant web pages to stay in business.

#18 compar

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 01:25 PM

All in all, IMHO, the principle still stands that Google must serve up relevant web pages to stay in business.

Nobody is going to dispute that. The question is how are they determining relevance today.

We seem to have a lot of semantical nit picking and misunderstandings in this thread. But my concern is that many very well respected SEO gurus advocated a type of keyword phrase practice, principles, tactics, strategy, or formulation that I think is no longer applicable.

So whenever anyone uses "universal SEO practice or principles" as a recommendation of what people should be doing today I become concerned that some people reading that will understand what was to some degree a formaula like, or rules driven, approach.

Very briefly the rules I'm talking about included:

Keep your keyword phrases intact and exact.
(Today I think the phrases can be broken up and the words distributed naturally within the content)

If your keyword is singular, a plural version is not the same and you have to make up your mind which you are going to optimize for.
(This was never correct, because pre Florida stemming was operating and a plural would be stemmed to a singular and vis-a-versa.)

You must use your Keyword phrase(s) in your title as close to the beginning as possible and with the words in exact order and juxtapostion.
(I don't think this is the case today. In fact I have seen sites that survived Florida by simply having an additional word or adjective in front of the very competitive keyword phrase. Immediately after Nov 16 the #1 site for the keyword phrase 'online pharmacy' started their title with 'Cheap online pharmacy' where as over 95% of all the sites whose titles started with 'online pharmacy' had been demoted.)

There were fairly exact keyword density goals advocated.
(Today I think you are better off with lower keyword densities and as I said above the keyword phrases do not have to be used intact, but can be broken up for more natural writing.)

So I continue to ask the question everytime someone offers the old chestnut about just follow SEO principles, what specific set of principles are you talking about? Because some highly promoted and advocated sets of principles -- or whatever -- were too agressive and are wrong in today's situation.

#19 Grumpus

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 01:59 PM

Your confusing specific advice (much of which comes from one person and will often be contradicted by another) on technique with the basic principles.

Keep your keyword phrases intact and exact.


That's some advice. I, like you, have the notion that it's important to have spread in there. I do say though, that you should have one exact match if possible. But this is specific advice on utilizing a principle.

The Principle: Keyword Phrases are important.

If your keyword is singular, a plural version is not the same and you have to make up your mind which you are going to optimize for.


I believe it's possible to optimize for both the singular and the plural, regardless of whether the engine is stemming or not.

The Principle: It is important to make decisions on how you are going to incorporate variations of keywords into your copy.

You must use your Keyword phrase(s) in your title as close to the beginning as possible and with the words in exact order and juxtapostion.


I'm not certain I've ever even heard this one, but I know which principle it comes from.

The Principle: Keyword location and order on your page will have an effect on how it ranks.

There were fairly exact keyword density goals advocated.


Yep. And those density (and spread) values have changed.

The Principle: Keyword density (and spread) has an effect on how your page will rank.

just follow SEO principles, what specific set of principles are you talking about


What people are saying when they suggest that you follow the old principles is that there are no real new principles to learn, nor are there any that are no longer important. True, how you apply those principles may change - and change considerably, but the priniple itself has stayed the same.

In other words, theres nothing new like saying, "The color value in your BGCOLOR tag will have an effect on your ranking".

They are, in effect, saying, "You don't need to learn any new principles, you may need to alter your technique in the application of those principles." And no SEO guru in their right mind is going to give you a specific answer as to how to adjust your application of the principles - having their own way of making best use of the principles is what pays their salaries.

Sometimes, I think that the reason so many SEO people offer free advice to lay a foundation of understanding in the field is just so that you, as the person trying to learn it will realize "Wow, this is complex stuff! Screw this, I'm forkin' over the $500 and going golfing." But it's there for the taking if you really want to learn. You're still going to have to (through observation of others' work, or by experimenting with your own) learn how to come up with your own applications for the principles.

(And if you look - most of the specific mentions of an application of a principle are posed by someone somewhere in the learning curve. And maybe an SEO guru will confirm or deny the validity of that application, but you'll rarely, if ever see it originating from the guru's mouth.)

G.

#20 compar

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 02:31 PM

What people are saying when they suggest that you follow the old principles is that there are no real new principles to learn,

How do you know that? That maybe what you are saying, but I'm sure that it is not what other people are saying.

Our unamed advocate is probably one of the best known, best published advocates on the subject. Someone on this forum gave me her name just the other day as an example of outstanding branding success. So what she taught and adovated as the method of exploiting the principles, you so correctly espouse, is understood, or misunderstood, by many as SEO principles or practice. Not everyone makes your fine semantical distinction between the two.

In fact I think your own understanding of SEO principles has blinded you to what other understand or mean by that phrase. I think if you go back and re read all the advice to use these universal principles and them look at the examples that some people give you will start to see that they mean the practices that have been so widely preached and advocated.

I don't understand why you and I are arguing Grumpus. We both advocate the same style of SEO practices. You should be supporting me in trying to assure that there is no misunderstanding. We are both on the same side.

#21 Grumpus

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 02:54 PM

I guess, then, the difference between us is that I'm looking for the value in what those people are saying, and you're more interested in the flaws.

I'm going to stick with my answer. Those things you listed aren't basic principles, nor are they a stable foundation to build an SEO plan. Those are conclusions drawn through an understanding of the principles as I described them.

Maybe that's not what people mean when they say, "Stick to the Principles". It is what I do, and always have, taken that statement to mean, though. By taking it that way, I've never once had to scramble to save a site that suddenly dropped from existence, nor ever had one that was severely affected in any way by any algo change - whether that algo change be major or minor.

It's highly counter-productive to pick apart what's wrong with someone's statement (even the ones I've made here). It is productive to find out what's right about it (even if it's just one thing) and to see how that can help you. I realize that in some cases, you're pointing this stuff out so that others will know that, in your mind, the advice is questionable - but there are so many aspects and elements in SEO that it's difficult to explain why something works for them and not for you.

It's also fine to express what works for you, but doing it for the sake of debunking what works for someone else isn't doing anyone any good. There's a difference between starting a discussion about how opinions differ than to express a differing opinion for the sake of discrediting the original opinion. Maybe it's not your intention to do this, but it does come across that way quite often.

Look for the silver lining in the cloud and not for the cloud around the silver lining. You'll be much happier. ;)

G.

#22 compar

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Posted 06 January 2004 - 04:12 PM

I guess, then, the difference between us is that I'm looking for the value in what those people are saying, and you're more interested in the flaws.

That's cruel and unwarranted.

I'm trying to understand exactly what they are saying and where they are coming from. I'm not interested in criticism for the sake of criticism. But I think a forum should be a place to learn. So I will always question exact meanings so that no false impressions are allowed to lead people astray.

Your "looking for value" approach runs the risk of being slightly Pollyanna at times. Everyone who uses the same set of words that you use does not necessarily mean or understand the same thing from them. Communication is about minimizing the misunderstanding. That's my aim. I'm not looking for flaws. I'm trying to explore meaning and avoid misunderstanding.

#23 optisite

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 07:22 PM

To everyone,

From my experience in optimization, I have learned that the pursuit of this is a dwindler.

If we can stick to very general truth's, and perhaps arrive at an agreement based on truths,(not that truths are comprised by agreement, not at all) what Google and others are starting to recognize is the value of the pattern match.

Too many times out of the ordinary, in too many of the same places, spells preconceived to them-- true or not.

Forget keyword proximity, I have a representative enough cross-section with prior ranking keywords that have just about all been lost to the vacuum of Google space.

What they now want, is what they think is natural, which includes a variation in: home-page-driven internal link structure/proximity, non-repititious order (content/internal, inbound & outbound links) apparently subdomain abundance in certain instances, marks of high traffic, and a few big static listings still as indicators.

Mostly what they want is too not be, is subject to analysis or even dissembly. For this expect variation and possibly, seemingly unrelated samplings; given multiple levels deep in the serps.

#24 Kali

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Posted 07 January 2004 - 07:59 PM

IMHO - Google is not gunning for hyphens in the domain name in the slightest.

Google is gunning for spam sites and many 'black hat' SEOs were using/abusing hyphens in the domain name. Thus with the inclusion of the latest set of Spam filters more hyphenated domains got hit than non-hyphenated domains. Therefore people imply that hyphenated domains are being targeted by Google.

I would look more closely at the stemming used by Google and the artificially constructed language used in a lot of SEO'd pages.

#25 leeclark

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 08:25 PM

I accidently bought "nashville-indiana-bed-breakfast.com" as a forward it delivers 30 % of my page visits.

Lee

#26 Still Waters

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 11:54 PM

I accidently bought "nashville-indiana-bed-breakfast.com" as a forward it delivers 30 % of my page visits.

Are you serious or just joshing us? :)
May I ask, thirty percent of how many total page visits?

#27 leeclark

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 07:19 AM

Thanks for the post. Nashville indiana is a small town, know as little Nashville in the lodging trade.

I am new to all this web stuff. I am considered by my friends and family to be an authority on many subjects but the www is certainly not one of them.
Please explain the relativity of the actual count?
If you working in a large area my numbers are miniscule.
They were all the number one spot on page one of a google search for the key phrase " brown county bed breakfast" was worth.

The above was not a "smart ***" answer, I came to this forum to learn, not to lecture!

Lee

#28 leeclark

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 07:30 AM

Back to the main thread if you please. Bob Wakfer is right on IHMO.

Regards plurals;
I exposed an entirely different world by adding or leaving out that tiny character "S" when I was reseaching searches to buy a new URL .
i.e. Try "brown county cabin" vs "brown county cabins"


Lee

#29 BillSlawski

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 08:26 AM

Hi Lee,

Welcome to the forums. Good to have you aboard.

Good point, and an excellent subject for testing.

The results for the two search phrases do appear to be different, and I guess that they would be. I'd expect that if you use the phrase with the singular that the most relevant results with the singular will show before the most relevant results with the plural.

This is something that we can test, by doing a number of searches and seeing what the results are.


I think I would also surmise that at some point, singular results would become less important than possibly more relevant results with the plural. I'm not sure that you would get all of the singular results first, and then the plural.

But, that would be a good thing to test, too.

#30 leeclark

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 09:11 AM

A study of the first five pages is interesting. The number one spot in "cabins" fails not appear in any of the first five pages 0f "cabins".
Google is surely inexplicable.

Lee



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