15 replies to this topic

[SEOigloo]

Good Evening Everybody

Tonight, I was doing some keyword research for a project for a client who provides a professional service in their city. For the sake of example, let's say it's a dentist in San Francisco. I have been dismayed to discover SEObook's keyword tool reporting back 0 searches for any possible combination of words I can think of, such as:

Bay Area Dentist
San Francisco Dentist
SF Dentist
Sleep Denistry San Francisco California
Dental Care San Francisco CA
Get teeth fixed San Franciso
You get the point....

This person lives in quite a large city and there are nearly 2 million pages in Google's index for many of the terms I've investigated. It's a popular, well-accepted profession that I'm assuming millions of Americans seek out every year. Yet, Overture et. al say there are 0 searches for this service in this city.

What would you think, running into this, trying to pick your title tags, etc? What would you do?

Miriam

[ChuckTM]

If you want to do keyword work for others you should look at Nichbot:

san francisco dentist 158
san francisco cosmetic dentist 125
san francisco implant dentist 116
cosmetic dentist san francisco 97
dentist san francisco 93
sedation dentist san francisco 89
san francisco sedation dentist 81
implant dentist san francisco 44
san francisco family dentist 37
sleep dentist san francisco 37
san francisco neuromuscular dentist 28
san francisco lvi dentist 26
invisalign dentist san francisco 19
las vegas institute dentist san francisco 19
san francisco laser dentist 19
cosmetic dentist san francisco bay area 17
san francisco sleep dentist 17
cosmetic dentist francisco san 7
san francisco extreme makeover dentist 7
sedation dentist san francisco county 5
cosmetic dentist san francisco oakland san jose california 3
cosmetic dentist south san francisco 3
dentist in san francisco 3
free dentist reviews san francisco 3
massachusetts cosmetic dentist tooth bleaching san francisco 3


And don't use the keyword meta tag at all.
Just the title and description tags.

[A.N.Onym]

Chuck, I suspect Miriam was only giving a general example in the form of a SF dentist. She wasn't looking for keyword research data for that particular phrase.

At any rate, there are two reasons there may be no data. The first one you know: it is that the phrase isn't used.

The second reason why the data is missing is that the tool doesn't have it. Keyword research tools don't encompass all the search query data and no one of them can get everything. Most tools buy data from ISPs and use other sources of information.

For example:
- WordTrack only has data of latest 90 days and only tracks metacrawlers (Dogpile and some other metacrawler)
- KeywordDiscovery hasn't disclosed its sources, though it shouldn't be everything
- Google External Tool does have Google data, but without exact figures (unless you use Google Traffic Estimator)

What I'd suggest is:
- use as many tools as possible, such as WordTracker (good to know what exactly the people are searching for, the long tail), KeywordDiscovery (has huge numbers, good to identify popular queries) and Google Traffic Estimator (can estimate traffic on PPC, increase the numbers by 150-200% to get real search traffic)
- try a more general phrase, such as dentist california
- try a related phrase, such as dental services
- search using one business word and one local word, such as 'dental california' or 'dentist angeles'
- study competition
- read forums, blogs, etc to know what words the people (the customers) are using

[ChuckTM]

Yes, but my answer is the same.

If you want to do keyword work for others you should look at Nichbot:
(It uses all three sources)

[earlpearl]

Chucks suggestion and example, using Nichebot is impressive.

Frankly I haven't used it.

having done a strong bit of local optimizing and having had success for the main phrases and secondary terms I would have said the following before seeing Chuck's example.

Ignore the fact that combinations of phrases with the geo terms don't show up in any quantity. Search phrases combined with local terms are rare. The numbers are small.

Optimize for the generic industry terms and be sure that the appropriate geo terms show on the pages w/the industry terms.

Get high rankings for the combo industry/ geo terms. The traffic will be there.

My experience with a couple of sites in an area like San Fran that the long tail traffic comes in if the site is highly ranked for the combos of industry and geo terms.

It comes in small groups for any one phrase; 1's and 2's up to 20/30/50 per month...if the service is popular in that metro region.

But having seen Chuck's example....follow it. That is a very inclusive keyword analysis service....far more deep reaching than others.

Besides that, though...still identify the industry long tail searches w/ appropriate geographical terms. The traffic will appear with high rankings.

[SEOigloo]

Hi Guys,
Thank you, all, for the replies.

Chuck, I hadn't heard of nichebot before. I did go check it out, but frankly, was confused by their pricing model. They appeared to be saying they would charge you per keyword, and I really couldn't figure out what that would amount to. I was hoping they'd at least have a free trial or something, but didn't see one. The layout of their homepage was a little bewildering. Is there a free trial? Have a missed it?

In the absence of that, I have tried all the usual resources, and continue to be met with 0 data.

Yuri -
Yes, the dentist was just an example. Thanks for catching that. I appreciate your suggestions. They are good ones!

Dave -
Yes, it seems like I will have to go with the generic term, and simply include local data for those types of searches. I am sure they MUST occur, at least in some quantity.

Thanks again, fellows!
Miriam

[earlpearl]

Miriam:

here is another keyword tool with a robust "larger" data base; Wordze.com

I ran a search for san franciscon dentist. Even if it is not the term for which you are searching it is similarly obscure.

Wordze came up with some of the following phrases with the following "word counts"

bay area cosmetic dentist 48
bay area cosmetic dentistry 29
bay area dentist 125
berkeley cosmetic dentistry 114
california center for implant dentistry 0
california cosmetic dentist 444
california cosmetic dentistry 457
california dental association 18
california dental insurance 92
california dental malpractice 0
california dentist 124
cosmetic dentist san francisco 102
dental bonding san francisco 87
dental services san francisco 79
san francisco cosmetic dental care 52
san francisco cosmetic dentist 374
san francisco cosmetic dentistry 302
san francisco cosmetic dentists 0
san francisco cosmetic surgeon 34
tooth whitening san francisco 101

I believe wordze has keyword access to several ISP's.

Wordze currently has a one day price of $7.95 and a one month cost of $35. They were running a 1 month free trial for a short time.

It appears similarly large in scope to Nichebot.

While you are searching for a different phrase, I would guess that it is similarly obscure to the phrase "san francisco dentist" in which case you evidently are not going to get keyword suggestions that describe 2ndary phrases w/ counts w/ the various geographies.

I would still go with the seemingly most popular and relevant 2ndary phrases and add the appropriate geo terms. That tends to work.

If the prhases aren't competitive, getting them in titles is key to ranking high...and I would definitely strive for anchor text back links.

[A.N.Onym]

Nichebot uses data from WordTracker, KeywordDiscovery and maybe Overture. I see no value in its services. Judging by the amount of search queries, the data about a 'dentist san francisco' came from WordTracker.

A small search using a free version of WordTracker confirms that.

So, you don't have to pay for Nichebot, though, if you do want to take a look at the free version, feel free to go to http://nichebotclassic.com (same product, but free trial).


Dave, did you select related geo terms manually or it was WZ that has done it? Also, I think that WZ's database is a bit larger than that of WT, which is good. Maybe worth a shot, though I haven't tried it really. Does WordZe have a free trial?


Miriam, if you want to use a larger database to catch very long tail phrases, you can use a free trial of KeywordDiscovery. Admittedly, you'll have to use the method I described on another thread about keyword research with geo terms on another forum, since you'll only be able to see 10 top spots in the free version.

A paid version of WordTracker ($28/week?) can get you
- not 100 but 1000 search queries for a single request
- you'll be able to find synonyms to phrases as well as similar phrases to geo terms (I think)
- competitive data on the search queries (though you'll need to cover the general competitive phrases first, anyway)
- export the data to Excel, etc.

Cheers.

Edited by A.N.Onym, 04 September 2007 - 07:25 PM.

[earlpearl]

Yuri:

I ran a keyword search on the phrase San Francisco Dentist. Wordze came up w/ about 3,000 phrases.

They are all over the board. I just pulled examples that I thought might show relevance to an obscure less trafficked phrase.

The brief window for a free trial with wordze is over.

I'm not an expert. It does generate a large and long tail of keywords for different searches from my brief trial. I've seen two reviews of wordze at seomoz.org. Check them out. They'll give you more information.

[A.N.Onym]

Well, in that case WordZe may well be worth a try. Especially, since it has a daily option and has a larger database, than WT.

[EGOL]

If overture is zero then there are two possible problems.....

1) overture has a bug right now

2) you don't have the right KW


Buy wordtracker for a day to see what they say... try the same query for other cities... call that dentist's (or whoever's) receptionist and ask what their clients ask for when they call on phone. I know for a fact that lots of receptionists can give much better KW research than some professional SEOs and KW tools.

[A.N.Onym]

WT has removed the 'pay for a day' option a while ago. Now the minimal cost is $30/week.

Good idea to get the data from the client/other dentists. Maybe local newspapers might help, too.

[earlpearl]

As EGOL noted.....

call that dentist's (or whoever's) receptionist and ask what their clients ask for when they call on phone. I know for a fact that lots of receptionists can give much better KW research than some professional SEOs and KW tools.

I know, in my own case, that when I start a search for appropriate keywords.....I'm usually off base. One suggestion is to ask a number of friends for how they would search for a service/product.

A very strong suggestion is to go to the personnel within that business and ask them what customers or potential customers say when first inquiring about the business.

People within the business respond to so many queries they have a great sense for what drives or motivates potential customers.

[tambre]

One suggestion is to ask a number of friends for how they would search for a service/product.

I do that all the time. I'll ask friends, coworkers or family "if you were searching for this, what would you search for?" I've gotten some good answers and some terms that I hadn't thought about using before.

EGOL, I thought overture was having problems? I can't find the url but i thought I read that overture (at least as a keyword tool) was down or was too many months behind to be considered a legit tool to use.

I use keywordtracker and the SEO Book Keyword Tool. It's amazingly handy. I get a list of what other people search and the search volume for google, msn, yahoo and gives you links to: yahoo suggest, word tracker, keyword discovery and a bunch of google tools like trends and traffic estimator.

[AbleReach]

One suggestion is to ask a number of friends for how they would search for a service/product.

I do that all the time. I'll ask friends, coworkers or family "if you were searching for this, what would you search for?" I've gotten some good answers and some terms that I hadn't thought about using before.

In the past, I've stood on a street corner with a clipboard and done brief surveys. VERY brief is best.

"Hi, I'm doing marketing research. Do you have time to answer three questions?"

Dress up and brush your teeth. (no spinach or garlic for you, LOL) Bring a few business cards, brochures, etc, in case someone is impressed by your initiative and wants to see a portfolio. It's not a bad idea to have your "survey" page printed on something that looks official, too. This helps to make it obvious at a glance that you are a professional, not a cult or a scammer. For the right person, have on hand a printed survey (stamped, self-addressed) to mail in later, or make an appointment to buy them a cup of coffee someplace where/when you can have a longer conversation more comfortably.

[SEOigloo]

Thanks, everybody, for the good suggestions.

I did managed to get a free trial of wordtracker. As was suggested, above, there just isn't any local searching being recorded for the terms associated with this business. I find that very sad :cry:

So, we are left with doing the regular search terms, plus making the geo information readily available...and actually hoping Google does send out all those people to index all the small business in the U.S (which is a weird feeling to have) if only so more people will start doing local searches for more things!

Thanks for sharing your resourceful ideas with me, folks!
Miriam