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All I Want Is Rank!

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#1 cre8pc

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:32 PM

When someone says, "I want my site to rank number one", or "All I want is to rank", what are they thinking?

 

If I am told rank is the most important goal, no matter what - what does that mean, exactly?  

 

For me, rank at all costs means ignoring making a website that people want to visit and use. That the people part is not expected or part of the plan.

 

Is getting search engine rank the ultimate and possibly only investment a site owner should make?



#2 test-ok

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:45 PM

IMHO  Yes and no. traffic and conversions are very important, however ranking has quite a bit to do with traffic and conversions. Along with good content which again has a lot to do with rankings, conversions and traffic. It's kind of a vicious circle.

 

When someone says, "I want my site to rank number one", or "All I want is to rank"

 

 it's only one quarter of the recipe.  You also need milk, butter and eggs to make a good biscuit. :)



#3 bobbb

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:37 PM

All I want is to rank", what are they thinking.

Maybe they should describe exactly what they are thinking. I've heard that before. Cars, Insurance, Cabaret. Ah maybe yes for those in some town in Idaho or Iowa which is what they are probably thinking. What good is it to rank #1 for Cabaret if the searcher is in London, Ontario, or England and your bar/cabaret is in Boise.

 

I had to convince someone of that about 10 years ago when this stuff was simpler. Cabaret 54 was on top.

 

Ditto above. no traffic no nothing of whatever it is you want.



#4 earlpearl

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 08:57 AM

If all they want is "rank"...I have something for them.

 

Just noticed this seo email solicitation in one of our smb site's email boxes.

 

Now, to tell the truth among other things I've been disavowing like a madman.  Admittedly some of these local sites have directory listings going back...in fact some go back as far as 2003.  

 

I've just been disavowing, and disavowing, etc etc etc etc.  At this point I'm pretty mindless.

 

So....we got this "rank" solicitation in the email...as follows.....

 

Hi,

I hope doing well

 

We are a leading result oriented Web Solutions Company in India. We are providing cheapest SEO Service. Highly discounted SEO from a professional in the field. We are offering this discounted service for pennies in comparison to anyone else. You will get 100% result in 3 months.

Our Monthly Task and responsibilities: -

Off Page Activities: -
     1. 80 Directory Submission
     2. 40 Social Bookmarking
     3. 10 Article Submission (1 article x 10 article directories)
     4. 10 Press Release Submissions (1 press release x 10 press release websites)
     5. 1 unique, 400 word article written

     6. 1 unique, 400 word press releases

     7. 20 Theme-base Blog Commenting
     8. 10 Classified Submission
     9. 10 Search Engine Submissions
  10. 10 Blog Submission
 

On Page Activities:-

     1. Title Tag Optimization
     2. Meta Descriptions Optimization
     3. Alt Tag Optimization
     4. Anchor Tag Optimization
     5. Heading tag changes
     6. Competitor Analysis
     7. Keyword research
     8. Content Optimization
     9. Robots.txt Optimization
  10. Xml Site Map for Google
  11. Urllist.Txt
  12. Html Site Map for User
  13. Google Webmaster Tool
  14. Bing Webmaster Tool
  15. Google Analytics Setup
  16. Interlinking wherever required
  17. Keyword Management

 

Let me know if you are interested.  I look forward to your positive response.

Regards, 
Aahna

 

 

 

Now that is some pretty "rank cr@p".   Of course they promise it is cheap.  hmmmmmm.    

 

I wonder how many customers these email blasts bring.  I feel soooooooooooooooo sorry for the suckers that buy into this stuff.

 

But...its RANK.



#5 bobbb

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 09:04 AM

You will get 100% result in 3 months

Any guarantee?  Ah wait a minute they mention nothing about ranking and no definition of results.



#6 iamlost

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 10:02 AM

Of course the higher one ranks for a term in a search result the more traffic that is likely to come from that HOWEVER:

* is the term one of value to you aka you get something from the traffic other than consumed bandwidth. Not all terms are created equal.

* is the traffic of value to you aka is it target traffic that is likely to convert in some preferred fashion. Not all traffic is created equal. If you are targeting US retired vacationers and the visitors are non-US teenage gamers...

SEs are the epitimone of dumb and dumber.

Many/most SEOs are the epitome of dumb, dumber, and dumbest.

Yes, humans can still out dumb computer software. Yay us! :D



#7 jonbey

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 06:11 AM

A site without visitors is pointless.

 

Of course, the average client may not differentiate between Google PageRank and social referrals or other forms of web traffic. They are probably just saying - I want visitors as well as pretty photos.

 

Content is still king. From what I have seen it is still not too hard to rank a small business well enough. Many businesses do well with the additional 10-20 daily visitors their website generates. This sounds crazy for those (like me!) who need tens of thousands of visitors to earn enough ad revenue to run a business, but if they are providing a service that people need in the local area they get a significant amount of traffic from a good website.



#8 cre8pc

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 09:57 AM

A site without visitors is pointless.

 

That, my friend, is the problem.

 

What is being sold is this idea that rank = visitors = people who will stay long enough to click banner and text ads or make a purchase.

 

The reality is, nobody comes rushing to a website placed in the top spots to click ads and they have most certainly not been convinced to make a purchase from whatever information was displayed with the search description.

 

The actual work happens inside the web site and unless the SEO includes UX design work with their services, they provide an empty promise and shallow sales attempt.

 

This is why small biz sites can sell to the 10 or 20 folks who get there.  It is the site that did the persuasion.  

 

You never see a search engine place a "Buy Now" call to action button in with the site description of a highly ranked site or page.  This is because the rank won't sell the product and search engines are not in the business of helping site owners gain conversions.  Search engines only want their advertisers sites clicked on.  What happens after that, they could care less.  The user journey after the search query click is of no interest to search engines.



#9 earlpearl

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 10:14 AM

A site without visitors is pointless.

 

Of course, the average client may not differentiate between Google PageRank and social referrals or other forms of web traffic. They are probably just saying - I want visitors as well as pretty photos.

 

Content is still king. From what I have seen it is still not too hard to rank a small business well enough. Many businesses do well with the additional 10-20 daily visitors their website generates. This sounds crazy for those (like me!) who need tens of thousands of visitors to earn enough ad revenue to run a business, but if they are providing a service that people need in the local area they get a significant amount of traffic from a good website.

Well said.    We run small business sites.  Extra local traffic might be an extra 10-2- visits/day.  It might be more than that.  Those few extra web visits in a local context can matter ENORMOUSLY.  Its all relative.  That extra traffic might be 10, 20, 30, 40%.     Whether a site is local or world wide...adding 10-40% traffic is always meaningful.

 

Traffic needs to stick to make it work as per Kim, above.   I can't speak to the ad income side, but if traffic doesn't stick enough the site doesn't work.  

 

All of our small sites have been hit with google penalties.  None of them got emails.  We just lost ranking.  I've been tediously, monotonously disavowing links.  Thousands of them in the aggregate.  Even with tools I've been going through them studiously.  I tend to favor and keep links that include Name, address, phone number (NAP) regardless of how ugly they may seem.  I believe google local strongly favors these links.  But what do I know.  The organic algo and penalties could deem them "bad" and the local algo could deem them good.  Possibly.  I'm not sure.  

 

When the penalties are lifted traffic goes back up.  The rebound in visibility and then traffic could be in the 10's, 20's, 30's-100's per day (depending on type of site and density of local market, and type of service).   Small for the world wide sites.  Hugely significant for the local sites.

 

Its really a tenuous situation.  

 

With the onslaught of google penalties its really a precarious situation requiring that which Iamlost keeps referencing....diversification.  Diversification is an absolute requirement in any business in any venture, of any type.  In the world of google dominance in search it is a difficult but necessary defense, IMHO and experience. 

 

It also mandates that websites be better so that traffic sticks.   Thereby acknowledging Kim's words.

 

Its a much tougher world than it was a few years ago.   In my perspective google is mostly working against you...and for itself.



#10 Grumpus

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 10:53 AM

Nowadays, an organic #1 spot is fairly useless. The paid ones look so similar to the organic ones that (for any competitive term) the best you can hope for is #3 on this list (if you are #1 in organic).

 

This brings up another old topic that I'm going to start in another thread so as not to hijack this one....



#11 earlpearl

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 11:27 AM

Nowadays, an organic #1 spot is fairly useless. The paid ones look so similar to the organic ones that (for any competitive term) the best you can hope for is #3 on this list (if you are #1 in organic).

 

This brings up another old topic that I'm going to start in another thread so as not to hijack this one....

My current and long term experience is different.  We have always seen better results from organic #1's than ppc #1's.  In fact we have had them in certain phrases for many years.  It was better years ago.  Its still better now.     Is it "less better"??   I don't know.  Haven't checked for that.  But our experience is that organic #1's pay off....big time.

 

 

Meanwhile, more on ranking, Google penalties and site, business and small business impact.

 

It appears that one of our smb sites is emerging from some google penalties.  It hit a lot of money phrases.  It hit a LOT.   I really don't trust webmaster tools data.  Its purposefully not precise.  It typifies the cr@p google has sent to local businesses for years.  They got away with that, and continue to send cr@ppy data in that venue and they are doing it with purposefully non complete data in wmt....   Let alone who knows if its accurate or fudged data.   Its purposefully not good.  Of that I'm sure.

 

In any case wmt is showing a significant improvement in visibility.   We are seeing more clicks to the website.  

 

The most recent impact of the penalty roughly corresponded to May and June.   

 

Here are some rough comparisons on some May and June data.

 

Overall leads to the business dropped 23% from 2013 and 20% from May/June '12.   Those are devastating drops.  The smb works hard and long on converting leads.  No bs/ just hard work to convert leads to sales.  Big drops in leads end up being drops in revenues.

 

Traffic losses to the website were far more brutal.  Overall web traffic dropped 40% from 2 years ago and 35% from last year in those comparable months.   Those are deadly drops.  its not all google and its not all the G penalties...but those are big parts of the loss.

 

Its not all a function of google penalties and getting totally screwed on relevant money phrases.  Google keeps changing its serps and appearance.  There is more competition.   Google threw web sites into high money serps...that reflected "changes in their "algos".  That changed click patterns and has caused us a drop in traffic.   Bull dinkeroo I say in response.  Those algo changes were done to impact serps and diversify traffic to lead smb's to spend more on adwords.      And we freaking have.  Because of the penalties we upped our adwords spend in certain areas.  Basically google made about 50-55% more money off of adwords during the past 2 months this year than in the past 3 years.

 

those freaking penalties killed us...but other things have also.

 

I have an entire program of diversification plans in the works.   We'll see what we can do to break the bonds of dependence on google search.  It is way too powerful.

 

Ranking "#1" is terrific....but don't put all your eggs in google.  They are jerking webmasters chains in every way possible......and getting away with it in North America.



#12 johnwebb

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 01:49 AM

I think if we had less people on the
Internet (which is impossible of course, the numbers are only growing), website
owners would have taken more care at making the sites useful. This isn’t happening
though, unless they think long-term at building their brand. And unfortunately sausage
factories do generate lots of traffic to their websites, and as a result get the
customer base.  Like one old brick and
mortar show owner used to tell me, there are three the most important things in
this business: 1) Location 2) Location 3) Location. In the digital age this
means visibility, visibility and visibility.



#13 JennyM

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:41 AM

I think the problem is that clients/companies usually just need to see that they aren't wasting their money on SEO. It's frustrating, but it's a concrete set of numbers you can show them - you were at this number, now you're at this number, and compare that with how many enquiries you've been getting.

 

Regarding organic vs PPC, anecdotally I'd say that people trust organic search results more, so I think there is still value in getting to number one. Although I think it's probably better if you can have a paid ad AND get ranked organically - it's like an affirmation of trust to most people who don't know how SEO works.

 

As test-ok said, it's part of the whole recipe. But having your company arrive at the top when people search for that product or service can certainly drive a lot of potential sales in that direction. It's not the only thing, but it's fairly important.



#14 optisite

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 05:55 AM

...Content is still king. From what I have seen it is still not too hard to rank a small business well enough. Many businesses do well with the additional 10-20 daily visitors their website generates. This sounds crazy for those (like me!) who need tens of thousands of visitors to earn enough ad revenue to run a business, but if they are providing a service that people need in the local area they get a significant amount of traffic from a good website.

- Need these numbers of visitors a mo. too, for ad revenue (private sites). Have done away with direct selling/the credit card check out model.

I would advise people considering new businesses (other than 'local only') to research and come up with a survey of how they might realistically attain customers before they build a site and go on with it (far ahead of weaving site pages with optimization, etc.)

We have someone down the street who spends a paltry amount on ppc specialty words yet does quite well, selling specialty factory replacement parts. Well less than a couple hundred dollars a month. Of course these aren't exactly generic high sought after terms.

After knowing how customers will connect, arrive at what type of business that is attainable. Rather than run out and open business doors, only later to see how all the great hoards are herding after the results.




 


Edited by optisite, 14 October 2014 - 05:58 AM.


#15 jonbey

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Posted 14 October 2014 - 06:13 AM

My old kung-fu teacher told me about a traditional weapons merchant (swords etc.) who was spending about £10,000 a month on Adwords advertising. For him it was a good return in investment pay £3 a click and sell a £500 katana. Easy money.

 

The trick is having the stock, the knowledge, the passion and the know-how for business. Something I seem to lack.





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