Jump to content

Cre8asiteforums Internet Marketing
and Conversion Web Design


Photo

Full Stack Employees Are The Promise Of The Future?


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 cre8pc

cre8pc

    Dream Catcher Forums Founder

  • Admin - Top Level
  • 13954 posts

Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:13 AM

This article from an ex-Google employee caught my eye at Medium.

 

The Full-Stack Employee

He talks about the new kind of IT employee who knows it all - to some extent.  They are cross trained in several disciplines and know enough from each to carry on a conversation, understand the project, think and create beyond that scope because of their knowledge and their ability to create, work, and dream endlessly.  These employees have no problems with quick meetings and are able to work independently and with teams.

 

He describes someone who is Internet savvy with social media, programming, front-end, back-end and every possible technical movement, algorithm and patent development the second it is known.  The eat-sleep this stuff kind of person.

 

What rattles my chain is that I AM that employee.  I applied for 2 jobs recently for a company that brands itself as progressive in the web dev and marketing space.  I was rejected because I "overqualified".  The job was for a business analyst (requirements gathering who knows UX).  The other was for UX.  Since being rejected, two more headhunters have contacted me about the position.  The headhunters were mystified as to why I was turned down, with one telling me that it was money (they had agreed to my salary range before the 2 job interviews) and saying they did not want someone with my long years of experience but rather, 5 years.

 

Someone younger.  

MILLENNIALS IN CHARGE The nation’s young adults are shaping offices and worksites, and management must adjust or fall behind.

 

I'm questioning this new type of employee demand and also the potential discriminatory ramifications.  What have you seen or heard?

 

 

 

The conventional seams between disciplines are fraying, and the set of skills necessary to succeed are broader and more nebulous than they’ve been before. These days, you’ve gotta be a real polymath to get ahead; you’ve got to be full-stack employee.

 

 

What is a full stack employee?

 

Just as there are full-stack engineers and full-stack startups, the full-stack employee has a powerful combination of skills that make them incredibly valuable. They are adept at navigating the rapidly evolving and shifting technological landscape. They make intuitive decisions amidst information-abundance, where sparse facts mingle loosely with data-drenched opinions. Full stack employees are capable of speaking design lingo, know that usingComic Sans is criminal, and are adept at making mocks in Keynote, Sketch, or Skitch (if it comes to that). And they know the difference between UI and UX.

They can cross the aisle to talk to engineering and can make sense of algorithms, programming, and instinctively understand that scaling the backend isn’t the same as scaling the frontend. Though they may not code for production, they understand what GitHub and StackOverflow are for, and can brute force a copy-paste script to perform basic analysis on a CSV file. If they must.


Edited by cre8pc, 13 July 2015 - 10:56 AM.


#2 iamlost

iamlost

    The Wind Master

  • Site Administrators
  • 4865 posts

Posted 13 July 2015 - 11:02 AM

I've read that article. And the rebuttals :)

 

The short answer is that true 'full stack' aka front and back end experts are about as common as hens teeth. Those few are in huge demand ... those that have a working full stack knowledge are basically cannon fodder expected to do it 'all' for peanuts.

 

Jack of all trades are either hired guns or door mats.

 

The author of course comes via Google and has very little non-G experience.


Edited by iamlost, 13 July 2015 - 11:03 AM.


#3 cre8pc

cre8pc

    Dream Catcher Forums Founder

  • Admin - Top Level
  • 13954 posts

Posted 13 July 2015 - 11:12 AM

I added a link to the article that essentially says millennials are the largest group of employable people.  The writer wrote:

 

Their thoughts, ideas, goals and aspirations will be shaping and influencing the world of work for years to come.

 

What concerns me is they are unable to develop websites and software apps for anyone older than age 30 because they have life experience to understand the needs of the largest populations in the US, UK and Germany - those over age 65.  

 

I keep looking at these so called "progressive" companies and their websites consistently fail my most basic UX and accessibility standards. I'm dumbfounded as to what the heck is going on.  <_<



#4 EGOL

EGOL

    Professor

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 5809 posts

Posted 13 July 2015 - 12:57 PM

I think that most of the full-stacks are smart enough to be workin' for themselves. 

 

The polymaths I know either will not work for other people, can't work for other people, or don't need to work for other people.

 

Most of the active posters in this forum (and some of the phantoms who pop in now and then) are genuine polymaths.  No kiddin'.  This place is loaded.  They don't even reveal half of the stuff they are doin'.


Edited by EGOL, 13 July 2015 - 01:06 PM.


#5 Grumpus

Grumpus

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 6482 posts

Posted 13 July 2015 - 04:48 PM

I read this article earlier today when you posted it on Facebook, Kim. I found myself feeling like one of the people being described, and like you - I was wondering why I wasn't in a lot more demand than I am. To me, the answer ultimately comes down to time and bother on the part of the people who want the work done. They want to hire someone, tell them what they want done (in 50 words or less), and then come back in a certain amount of time and have it all working exactly as they wanted.

 

I couldn't begin to count the number of jobs I lost (probably to someone who happened to be younger, but I don't think it's because they were younger) over the fact that someone else was willing to take a basic project outline and run with it. The people in charge don't want to be bothered when I ask for a procedures manual or have them walk me through exactly what it is they are trying to do. They don't like to take the time to then look at those procedures and see if there is a way to improve it and streamline it BEFORE I start working on the application.

 

I also can't count the number of people who have come back to me six months or a year later and say, "The guy I hired screwed me over and now I've got this application that doesn't do what we need." (And the ones who are in that situation, but are two proud to run the risk of hearing me say, "I told you so" so they never call me back, even though my grapevine tells me their shopping again). It's at this point where they start to realize that the guy didn't screw them over as much as they screwed themselves over. There was no way he was going to make an application that did what was needed if they never learned the procedures to actually know what was needed. At this point, they typically want me to "fix" the silly thing they are stuck with. Usually, I have to refuse.

 

I think it ultimately comes down to people just being afraid of the tech. They don't know it, so they don't want to look stupid. They just want to say, "I need this." and forget it. If they have to talk to me at any length, I might realize that they have no idea what I do - even though all I'm trying to do is learn what they do so I can make software to help.

 

Will that change? Maybe. I know I got a call this morning telling me that they were sorry they told me I was wasting time by getting the ducks all lined up first and they want me to get back on the reins and make sure the software starts to do what they need again, not what some programmer with no idea what they do thinks they might want because of some vague description. The world will probably take a while to come around, but some companies are.

 

G.

 

 



#6 iamlost

iamlost

    The Wind Master

  • Site Administrators
  • 4865 posts

Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:09 PM

The real value of someone who can do both front and back end stuff is that they have a sense of how things should fit. All to often they not only don't understand why one needs, as Grumpus says, to get all their ducks in a row first but they most often hire separate front and back end devs ...

oops.jpg

Perhaps the most practical definition/list I've read is Laurence Gellert's What is a Full Stack developer?, 01-08-2012.

...it is along the same lines as a polyglot programmer but with a higher view of all the connecting pieces. Note that on my list, only items 3-5 involve writing code.

And an acknowledgement that the stack has become too large/complex for anyone to be an expert at everything in The Rise And Fall Of The Full Stack Developer by Peter Yared, TechCrunch, 08-November-2014.

I’d wager that there are zero individuals with advanced-level knowledge in each of these areas that would be capable of single-handedly delivering this next generation kind of application. Just keeping up with the advancements and new programming interfaces in each category is almost a full-time job.

We are in the midst of a rapid shift to more complicated technologies that, as in days gone by, require experts at each tier.

 



#7 Grumpus

Grumpus

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 6482 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 04:29 AM

I'm not even sure I'm capable of writing an application where I was in charge of front or back, but had nothing to do with the other end of it. I've done it before where someone else was "doing" the work, but I was in the loop and we worked together in the preliminary stages to ensure that I was feeding him the data he needed. So much coding nowadays is wasteful because the back end guy is running all sort of unnecessary queries to populate variables that are never used or needed. I guess this all goes back to our other discussion about mobile and the other shoe dropping. Like with planet earth, computer resources are limited, too. 

 

G.



#8 bobbb

bobbb

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2541 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 09:29 AM

The Rise And Fall Of The Full Stack Developer

His bottom line: Rest in peace, full stack developers. Welcome, full stack integrators.

 

OK how did they fix the bridge thing above? Almost makes me thing the photo is a mock up.


Edited by bobbb, 14 July 2015 - 09:33 AM.


#9 cre8pc

cre8pc

    Dream Catcher Forums Founder

  • Admin - Top Level
  • 13954 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:23 AM

What a shame that young people don't participate in forums like this one.  When I launched these forums in 1998, I had members as young as 15 years old who were very actively involved and clearly wanting to learn as much as possible.

 

Should I hope my skills will be needed again?

 

Just today, a friend announced her newly redesigned website.  She's well known and has following.  I privately messaged her because the site is not responsive. It makes me so sad.



#10 bobbb

bobbb

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2541 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 11:15 AM

When I launched these forums in 1998, I had members as young as 15 years old who were very actively involved and clearly wanting to learn as much as possible

Doubt you will be seeing that again. This forum is populated with old fogies who are out of the loop and don't know anything anyway. :) .... And those 1998 15-year-olds are over 30 now so they are old too and can't be trusted.



#11 glyn

glyn

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2831 posts

Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:31 PM

I think that full stacks can define their future rather than be a cog in someone elses, of course you need drive as well.

#12 Grumpus

Grumpus

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 6482 posts

Posted 15 July 2015 - 09:21 AM

I started to write this yesterday, then got sidetracked and didn't get a chance to finish. Sadly, I lost my first draft, but here's another shot at it...

 

Kim (and anyone else who is ready for a long read), here is the approach I've been using lately. It seems to give me a little more respect and clout as the "antique version" of this new full-stack commodity. This isn't going to be the case with the large corporations, but I'm fairly sure that your target market and mine are similar - the Mom and Pop web sites. They tend to be a brick and mortar base who are looking to expand their online presence, or they are an online business looking to hit the next level. Either way, they've got something online already, they spent a lot of money on it and they feel as if they never got any real return on that money. They have somewhere between zero and eight employees. (I'm describing them here because these tips and tactics are only really going to work with this type of company - lots of different places will have some overlap, but this is the market these tips are going to resonate with most).

 

Understanding The Potential Client:

These people don't understand these silly computer machines. They only have a cell phone because everyone else does. They might only have a web site because someone else told them that they needed one. The list of things they want to do is a list of things that someone else told them they needed to have, even though that list wasn't tailored to their business or exact needs, it's a broad checklist that someone, somewhere came up with. If these things weren't true about the client and their list, we wouldn't be talking to each other in the first place. If they knew and understood these things, they would either already be done, or they would be getting it done by themselves.

 

Ultimately, they don't know what they want because they don't know what they can have. People tend to shy away from things they don't understand. It's nearly impossible, at this point, to sell them on anything that isn't already on their list because they don't even understand the value of their list, not to mention any thing that we want to add to that list that is going to cost more money. So, for me, step one is always to:

 

1) Unsell Them Something on the List

There is always something on the list that you can throw away. By unselling them on something, you are (in their minds) saving them money before they've even given you a dime. You aren't necessarily talking them out of doing it altogether, though. Never come at it from the "I don't know who told you to do that, but don't bother" angle. That puts you at odds with whomever they trusted to come up with their list. (It doesn't matter if the person they trust is correct or not - their trust is with that person). I typically come at it from a different direction. "This here is something I think you might want to wait on. It costs a $500 or so to get done and it's hard to see if and how much of a return we're getting on that money. If that gets pushed back to a later date once we have a good solid foundation, then we might be able to justify it, but for now, I really don't think you want to be giving me money that we can't see a return on. We can take the money we were going to spend on that and put it into something else that WILL give us a return on it and then we can come back to this later."

 

This serves a lot of purposes. The first thing is that you haven't tried to get them to question their trust in whomever came up with the plan (and remember, sometimes it was them who came up with it themselves based upon reading or whatever). The idea isn't tossed out - we've just put it on lower priority. We've also started building our own trust because we've told them not to waste money on it. Only someone looking out for the client's best interests (which ultimately, we are) would say, "No, don't pay me to do that." Most would just take the money.

 

We've also successfully taken $500 (or whatever the cost of the thing we just unsold would be) off the table so it's sitting there for us to put back on the table at a later date.

 

2) Find Some "Teach To Fish" Items And Unsell The "Fish"

In other words, I'd rather teach a man to fish than to give him a fish.

 

It can sometimes be hard to find items like this, but when they are there, point them out. These are things that would probably be done on an ongoing basis that you COULD do, but so could anyone else with a little bit of training. I tend to go at it like this: "On this item here, you can pay me to do it, but it's really something that a $12 an hour person could do with a little training. In the long run, you'd save some money if I worked with you and/or one or two other people in your company to teach them to do this. It will cost some money up front, but over the long run, it will save you thousands - plus it reduces your dependency on outside help and gives you more control over what is happening in the long run."

This is another tactic that seems insane - I'm turning down $100 a month to get $200 for training them now. Who would do that?!?!?! Well, the answer is that I would. I know for certain that no matter how much we do and for how long, there is ALWAYS something else to be done. I'm not turning away $100 a month, I'm opening the door to thousands in the future for something that I can more easily justify my cost on. More importantly, though, this also does two things for the client. We've established more trust because, once again, we're looking at their bottom line. We haven't even talked numbers yet and I've already saved them $500 plus $100 a month. That's $1700 this year, alone. That's nice to have, but what we've also done here is address a few more issues that no one ever seems to address:

  • Issue#1: We've promised them a bit of understanding. These computer machine things make no damned sense. Whether it's teaching them to backup their site and update their wordpress plugins themselves or whatever it is, that understanding goes a long way. All those links and clicky things aren't just random scary things anymore. At least some of them make sense and that builds confidence.
  • Issue#2: We've promised a bit of control. To most companies like this, their web work is scary. It's not just a lack of understanding, but it's also a lack of control. They are shelling out a lot of money and trusting that things are going to get done, but they aren't even sure what is getting done and what doing it does for them in the first place. By having someone in-house doing some of these things (whether it is them or a trusted employee that they can oversee directly) it gives them some control over something that has always seemed to be totally beyond their control.

For me, anything that I see that they could be doing in-house, is something that I offer to show them how to do it in-house. Some things they will take the offer, and other things they decide that it would be better to just let me keep doing it. Ultimately, though, the more I can get them to take on, the more familiar and comfortable with these computer machines they get. The more familiar and comfortable they are, the more likely they are going to be receptive to my ideas they'll be when we start talking "Phase 2" of the project down the road.

 

3) Analogize

By now, we hopefully have a bit of an understanding of the client and know some of the things they know. Are they more focused on logistics? Marketing? Margins? We may not know a lot about them, but we know a bit about the things that they DO know about. They don't know anything about what we know about though, so we need to make various analogies so they can understand what the hell we're talking about. If they are a brick and mortar retailer, we can use aisles and end-caps as analogies for site structure and navigation. If they are a shipping facility, we can use their Pulling, Packing, and Posting procedures as an analogy for UX and UI considerations in respects to the steps and process a customer needs to take to place the order that will start them on their steps and process of fulfilling it. (HINT: We "old" full-stack people are much better at this because we lived in a world where merchandising WAS aisles and end caps. A lot of these younger ones have been behind the machine their whole lives and they have no idea why the milk and eggs are at the back of the store).

 

The more I can explain my stuff in terms of their stuff, the more confident they become in the decisions they are going to make and in trusting me to execute those decisions.

 

4) Turnabout is Fair Play

 

For me, I try to learn as much about their industry as I can before I make contact. I don't need to know everything about it, but I need to be armed with the basics. Regardless of how much I know, though, I ask questions - and a lot of them. How do you typically do this? What is the most annoying and difficult part of doing that? etc. The fun thing here is that their answers help me give them some understanding of what I do. So, not only am I showing that I care to understand their business and make this work with their business, but I can also say, "Oh yeah, that is something I'm always having to overcome, too..." and then I can explain a bit about my job and how I need to consider the same types of things he or she does in the same situation.

I've basically taken my lack of understanding of their business and turned it around to showw them that I care to understand and get it right. I'm also not afraid to say that I don't understand it - and then ask about it. Their lack of understanding in what I do is one of their biggest obstacles with me. So I've shown how I overcome that obstacle which then turns it around so they know how to overcome it too - it's okay to not understand, and it's okay to ask me so that you can understand. (Plus, all of this info I'm getting here is ultimately important for the job to be done right anyway).

 

5) Don't Upsell Much More than Our Downsell

You may have noticed that I've mentioned "Phases" a few times in the above. I always think in phases because we can make everything more digestible. The $500 we took off the table in step one may not actually be something we've saved any money on - we may have just pushed it back into Phase 2. We're not worried about the specifics of Phase 2 yet, we're only worried about phase one. Ultimately, though, we're going to have some things that are on our list of "Important" things that need to that weren't on their list from the get-go. They have a specific budget in their head, and we want to stick to that as much as possible. On the services that we are trying to sell them on, we need to prioritize them the same way - both in terms of cost/return AND in overall importance and where they fit into things procedurally. It may be hard, but pushing things back to phase 2 is better than throwing it out the window altogether. Try to keep phase one on their original budget with the best lineup of things to do. Push everything else back into phase 2. (Some of the stuff you're putting there, you really do plan on doing - other stuff you're putting there just to get it off the table for now, but without saying - "No, that's just silly/worthless/wrong." If all of these steps are followed through the process, they'll eventually realize that that thing isn't worth doing on their own. )

 

6) Get as Many Measurable Things on Phase One as Possible

The more things that we can measure, the easier getting them to go for phase 2 will be - and the larger the budget we're likely to be able to get. Sometimes we need to come up with interesting ways to measure things, too. For sites that sell things, if we're making a new shopping system, we want to know how long it takes them to process an order now, how long it takes to deal with the shipping stuff, and so on. Measure. Measure. Measure. One good thing here is that typically with web site stuff, the known value of everything on it is exactly $0. So if the backend of the order processing system cost $400 and it saves 1 minute per order and they are getting 60 orders a week being processed by someone making $10 an hour (numbers chosen just for easy math), that investment pays for itself in 40 weeks, and they come out ahead by $120 in the first year, and the following year, it's worth $520. In itself, it's not a lot, but it's $520 a year more than the $0 they had last year - and we haven't even run the numbers on all the other stuff we've done. (Anyone who might come after us is screwed, though - because they don't have to beat $0, they have to beat $520).

 

The more we can measure in phase one, and the more money we can show at the end of a year or two, the easier it is to get some of the intangibles into the next phase. Even though #1 and #2 above seems to be throwing money away that we could have gotten from this client, that is the foundation for getting phases 2 through 5 in the works. We haven't thrown away quick money now, and we haven't thrown away ongoing money for the future, we've built a foundation for a long and profitable relationship for the both of us.

 

7) Throughout the Project, It's not just What, but Why

Once I've got the job going, I'm regularly reporting my progress - we all do that, it's part of the job. One thing I keep in mind though, is that (especially in phase 1) the client isn't really sure "why" we are doing what we are doing. They got their list from someone or created it from an article they read, or it just came from "Bob said, and Joe Said and so on". As I report what I did, I take a paragraph and tell them why we did it and what it is actually going to do. In most industries, those things are already understood. Me: "I put new brakes on your car." You: "Yeah, because my car wouldn't stop." For us, that's not always the case. This is an oft forgotten step by many. It's one of the most important for the long term relationship.

 

SUMMARY

As I said at the start, this isn't going to work with every single client situation, but it does work with most of the ones I tend to go with - and this type of client is plentiful. This type of client can often have more objections than others (a good many of these types of clients feel like they really got screwed by their last web person), but that's okay. This is why we approach them as the full-stack employee (see how I got back onto top there) but we add in the "relationship" and other factors.

 

Most any web person - be it your designer, developer, or full-service top down holistic service provider - isn't going to hit on all the various value points that we've offered in the outline above. Most will shoot for "confidence" and stop there. All they want is for the client to be confident that they will deliver (and ultimately, it doesn't really matter if they do deliver -they just want the job and then move on to the next).

 

We have offered confidence, trust, knowledge, control, and the comfort in knowing that you have no plan on just moving on, never to be seen again, once the job is done. All of those things are VERY important in a good business relationship. It's also a fairly safe bet that this potential client has never had anyone even try to offer them all of those things before. If they ever spoke with a consultant who offered them two of these things, I'd be surprised.

 

Almost all of my clients now are people with whom I started out with a simple, one time job: fix this, improve that, help with this. I might have nudged them a bit in the way we approach the problem, but I've never pushed hard to get something else done first, or to add too much to the budget. Yes, I'm certain that something I have to offer absolutely needs to be done for them to succeed, but it can always wait if the alternative is pushing them away. Sometimes, if I'm lucky, I can throw away almost all of their initial stack of things they want done and then give them a measurable stack to do first that will cost roughly the same, but that's rare. By phase 2, I have much more control over what gets into that list o stuff, and typically by phase 3 a single email about what I think needs to be done now will get a nod and a green light without any real need for questions or haggling.

 

Pro Tip: Part of this comes from my programming background and my ability to break complex things down into simple steps, but a lot of it just comes from the types of things we talk about here at Cre8asite all the time - being able to see how things relate to and affect each other as a whole. We don't waste a lot of time looking for the magic bullet, we look for places where a nice subtle shift combined with another will eventually create a clear path. The whole-istic approach. Anyway - because of this way of looking at things, I've ended up helping a lot of companies improve their process and procedures in areas totally unrelated to the web stuff. When building a shopping system, the time we take going over the fulfillment process on their end so that I can make it fit them on the front end has caused them to rethink their process and rework it. Not to match me, but just to make it more efficient in the first place. Then my system gets built to match that, instead. This is something that they never really directly get billed for, but you can be sure I follow up during my development time to make sure it's working, and to see how it has improved efficiency. It's something they can measure, that adds value to what I'm doing, and it cost them exactly $0 (even though it was basically in the budget all along - it's just not necessarily that result that was our primary goal). When this type of thing happens, measure it. Don't rub it in their face, but make sure they are at least subconsciously aware that this is money they got because of you.

 

This type of approach can probably only be accomplished (successfully) by someone who really does fit into that "full-stack employee" mold. If you have a limited skill set, you really cannot afford to shuffle the money from steps 1 and 2 above to something else, because the stuff you are shuffling is all you know. You have nothing else to replace it with.

 

The hardest thing about this, for me anyway, is that my priorities and my primary skill set (programming and workflow) doesn't always match what the potential client wants or needs right away. And even if they need it, we need to meet their wants first. As we do that, we can use that time to develop a relationship that helps them to learn to want what they need; to help them know what and why they want it, too. Kim, I know that you often struggle with trying to explain the value of user studies and all those other elements that are hard to measure. This makes them harder to sell, and I imagine many clients have been lost because you simply can't find a way to get them to understand the value. But, since we're full-stackers, we don't need to do that right away. We can let that stuff go for a few months. While we're doing the things we DID manage to get them to see the value in (and by doing the things that we wouldn't put a lot of value in, but couldn't convince them otherwise) we are talking to them. When it comes to planning and selling phase two, our natural tendency to show a bias toward our strengths (process for me, usability as a whole for Kim, probably something else for the rest of you folks reading this) will come out in our communications (especially in step #7 above). In our efforts to inform them, build their confidence, and in helping them to make informed decisions, the stuff that we are best at and that we will naturally prioritize becomes their most knowledgeable area. It becomes important to them, too. By phase two, you aren't selling them your priorities, they are asking you for them because they are becoming their priorities..

 

If we push too hard to make them go with something they see no value in, we lose them before we start. If we nudge away the stuff that has no value, and nudge in some things that we both agree have value, we get the job. Now we've got time to show them value of the things they don't understand. We can say things like, "I probably would have done <something else> first, but as we do <what we are doing> I'm keeping that in mind so it's easy to hook it in later if we decide to go that way." We can say, "I'm taking <my important thing> into consideration when we do <this other thing>. It won't be perfect going at it this way, but we'll be able to see some sort of improvement over just doing it without that in mind."

 

Now, we're not trying to sell them something that we're telling them is in their best interest anymore. We're trying to sell them something that they now believe and understand is in their best interest because it actually IS in their best interest.

 

---

Whew - that got long, huh? Anyway - those are my thoughts. I hope Kim and maybe even a few other folks who might bother to read all of this can pull a few nuggets out of it. A cursory view of this might seem like I am trying to just come up with another way to bamboozle a customer to get lots of money out of them. I think most of you will find that if you read it closely, you'll see that one of the keys to the success of this type of approach is to actually believe it. These aren't just things I say to my clients to get them to do what I want. They are things I say to my client because I truly believe that they are in their best interest. Without that, I'm no better than the guy who just did what the client said they wanted and then vanished right before the client realized they just paid a lot of money for something they don't need. One of my most powerful things I say to my clients, and one of the things I mean more than anything else is this: "I will never charge you a dime that I don't think will bring you a return at least twenty cents in the next year or two."

 

I mean it, because I'm a proud full-stack kinda guy, and that's just how we roll.

 

G.

 

P.S. I can say with no small amount of certainty that this method of approaching clients and building relationships with them was something that developed over many years. The foundation that all of this was built on came from many of the people right here at Cre8asite. Many people think of (or at one time thought of) this site as an SEO site, or a Web Design Site, or whatever. It's way more than that and it always has been. My approach and strategies above will work in many different industries and I learned much of this from the folks here like Kim, Ammon, Bill, Jill, Dave, Adrian, Barry, and the countless others who have graced these pages over the years, both the folks from the old days and those with whom I've only become familiar with over the recent months during which I've been able to be more active again. Thank you, everyone.



#13 cre8pc

cre8pc

    Dream Catcher Forums Founder

  • Admin - Top Level
  • 13954 posts

Posted 15 July 2015 - 09:38 AM

We're trying to sell them something that they now believe and understand is in their best interest because it actually IS in their best interest.

 

This is EXACTLY the direction I'm taking now.  I started out with the old Cre8pc website teaching the trusted ways of being successful and have found an enormous need by small businesses for this again. As soon as I made the decision to put myself back to where I started, it all felt right and I found where I'm needed again.  

 

In other words, it is rewarding to me to help businesses be successful and I want to work for those who choose success.  



#14 earlpearl

earlpearl

    Hall of Fame

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 1952 posts

Posted 15 July 2015 - 11:41 AM

I started to write this yesterday, then got sidetracked and didn't get a chance to finish. Sadly, I lost my first draft, but here's another shot at it...

 

Kim (and anyone else who is ready for a long read), here is the approach I've been using lately. It seems to give me a little more respect and clout as the "antique version" of this new full-stack commodity. This isn't going to be the case with the large corporations, but I'm fairly sure that your target market and mine are similar - the Mom and Pop web sites. They tend to be a brick and mortar base who are looking to expand their online presence, or they are an online business looking to hit the next level. Either way, they've got something online already, they spent a lot of money on it and they feel as if they never got any real return on that money. They have somewhere between zero and eight employees. (I'm describing them here because these tips and tactics are only really going to work with this type of company - lots of different places will have some overlap, but this is the market these tips are going to resonate with most).

 

Understanding The Potential Client:

These people don't understand these silly computer machines. They only have a cell phone because everyone else does. They might only have a web site because someone else told them that they needed one. The list of things they want to do is a list of things that someone else told them they needed to have, even though that list wasn't tailored to their business or exact needs, it's a broad checklist that someone, somewhere came up with. If these things weren't true about the client and their list, we wouldn't be talking to each other in the first place. If they knew and understood these things, they would either already be done, or they would be getting it done by themselves.

 

Ultimately, they don't know what they want because they don't know what they can have. People tend to shy away from things they don't understand. It's nearly impossible, at this point, to sell them on anything that isn't already on their list because they don't even understand the value of their list, not to mention any thing that we want to add to that list that is going to cost more money. So, for me, step one is always to:

 

 

 

 

 

G.

 

P.S. I can say with no small amount of certainty that this method of approaching clients and building relationships with them was something that developed over many years. The foundation that all of this was built on came from many of the people right here at Cre8asite. Many people think of (or at one time thought of) this site as an SEO site, or a Web Design Site, or whatever. It's way more than that and it always has been. My approach and strategies above will work in many different industries and I learned much of this from the folks here like Kim, Ammon, Bill, Jill, Dave, Adrian, Barry, and the countless others who have graced these pages over the years, both the folks from the old days and those with whom I've only become familiar with over the recent months during which I've been able to be more active again. Thank you, everyone.

 

 

That is a terrific piece, Grump.   Thanks.  I've been the outside consultant/sales person and I've been the buyer on behalf of smb's.  Very well described.  I'd buy from that kind of approach.  I also essentially learned to sell on that type of approach....and it is very applicable for complex sort of service sales and for large price items.   VERY WELL DONE.

 

Thanks.



#15 glyn

glyn

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2831 posts

Posted 15 July 2015 - 01:56 PM

Nailed it.

#16 Nny777

Nny777

    Whirl Wind Member

  • Members
  • 74 posts

Posted 28 July 2015 - 04:04 AM

In my experience, employers only want to hire young people because they're a lot easier to exploit. As some people have mentioned, this full stack thing usually just means piling more responsibilities on top of one person, and usually expecting them to work through a lot of their spare time. I mean, someone with five years experience won't be able to haggle for their salary like someone with fifteen years would, and won't be able to demand the same allowances.

 

What a shame that young people don't participate in forums like this one.

 

:wavey:


Edited by Nny777, 28 July 2015 - 04:04 AM.


#17 bobbb

bobbb

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2541 posts

Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:20 AM

 employers only want to hire young people because they're a lot easier to exploit.  and usually expecting them to work through a lot of their spare time.

You got that right especially 2. And they are usually part-time or on contract so no benefits and easy to get rid of.



#18 Grumpus

Grumpus

    Honored One Who Served Moderator Alumni

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 6482 posts

Posted 28 July 2015 - 01:41 PM

easy to get rid of.

 

I take it that you haven't tried to get rid of someone in recent years. lol

 

This is just a quick overview of the modern pitfalls. It's almost impossible to "easily" get rid of someone nowadays - regardless of age.

 

G.



#19 bobbb

bobbb

    Sonic Boom Member

  • Hall Of Fame
  • 2541 posts

Posted 28 July 2015 - 11:39 PM

"part-timers or on contract" does not qualify as employees.

 

many businesses choose to institute a probationary period during which employees may be fired

 

Another option is to bring in contractors or temp workers and try them out before making a decision

What I said.





RSS Feed

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users