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#1 Stealth

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 03:10 AM

Hello all,
I got a real easy question for you....where do I start? :( Since this is my first post I will give you a brief(yea right) rundown on things. I have been making web pages for about 4 yrs now. Nothing big, just for peoples weddings or for a friends online game site. Stuff like that. Well no one told me you could make money doing this :roll: . So I have a friend who's Boss wanted a web site built for his real estate company. I built him a page(Still building), however I knew that I would need to get him on the web for his site to succeed. So I looked all over and some of these place who want to list websites for search engines can go into the thousands. WOW. So I stumbled apon WebpositionGold. Well it sounds great on paper, but the jest of it is I have no idea what I am doing. I am as newbie as it gets. I can walk you threw every OS there is. Dreamweaver, Photoshop, No Prob. But I cannot figure this stuff out for the life of me. HELP! I really need to know how and where to start. Any info (No matter how simple) would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading this longggggggg message. Great site. Thanks. I will be here very often.
Chris
P.S. (Hey look a specific question): How does the payment to the search engines work? Which engines do you pay for? How are you billed? Do you need to sign up on the enghine then upload your "Optimized pages"(However the hell you optimize a page)? Thanks Again!

#2 sanity

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 03:53 AM

Hi Chris,

I suggest you take time to learn all about SEO. These forums are a great place to start.

Also visit Jill's excellent website http://www.highrankings.com cause it's packed with info. You may also wnt to subscribe to her newsletter which will help you enormously.

For info on paid inclusion etc I've some info on my site: http://www.nitrogen....urces/index.htm

Good luck!
Sophie

#3 Guest_Phil_*

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 07:03 AM

Hi Chris. Welcome to the forum.

I'm sure there will be a number of responses to your post so I'll just reply to your last question.

How does the payment to the search engines work? Which engines do you pay for? How are you billed? Do you need to sign up on the enghine then upload your "Optimized pages"(However the hell you optimize a page)?


The pay-per-click method is quite simple. With some engines you can pay to be placed in a certain postion in the search results for a particular search term. Each search term is treated individually and you can bid on as many as you like. For instance, if you want your site to be listed at
You don't actually pay to be listed - you pay every time somebody clicks on your listing. If nobody clicks through to your site, you don't pay, although you do need to put a non-refundable deposit down.

That's the way it works with most of the pay-per-click engines. Overture (overture.com) is the biggest of them. Until a few months ago, Overture operated in the way I just described. But then they hit on a method of screwing their customers and they changed the way they operate it.

They now have a Maximum Bid system where advertisers (those who bid) can state a maximum that they are willing to pay for each click. A Maximum is set for each search term. Their listings show the Maximum bid, which is not necessarily the amount that the site is actually paying per click. In this way, if somebody comes along and outbids the amount that the site is actually paying, then the site's payment is increased to 1 cent more than the newcomer's bid, and it maintains its position in the listings. The increase will not exceed the Maximum bid.

You don't have to use their Maximum system but it doesn't help if you dont. Suppose the
That's how Overture are now screwing their customers (advertisers). Fortunately, Overture is in the decline.

The rising star in pay-per-click is Google's Adwords. The advertisements are placed in boxes on the side of the results pages and not included in the search results. It operates a little differently but you still pay when someone clicks through to your site.

One thing you don't have to do for pay-per-click engines is optimise the pages that are listed. As long as a page meets the engine's requirements, it will be listed regardless of its content.

Phil.

#4 Advisor

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 07:45 AM

Welcome, Chris!

Phil gave you a great overview of the Pay-Per-Click adverstising. This is a bit different than "traditional" search engine optimization, as you don't need to change your site at all to rank high.

In order to get your pages to be found in the "regular" results of the search engines, you'll need to first deterimine the keyword phrases that make the most sense to be found under. If you're talking about a real estate site, think about phrases such as "your city real estate" (where you substitute your actual city for "your city.") Other phrases might be "new homes your city" or "moving to your city" etc.

Then you have to make sure you're using those phrases within the visible text copy on those pages. If you also use those phrases in the pages "Title Tags" you'll have a good start to your overall optimization.

It won't do you much good to pay for inclusion to the search engines unless you've first done some rudimentary optimization such as that. And in the real estate field, you'll probably be competing with some other sites that are fully optimized so you may not see results right away. Keep learning more and more and tweak your pages accordingly.

Also, seek out complimentary sites that might be willing to add a link to your site from theirs. This will also help your overall rankings because the engines will deem your site as "important" since other sites like it.

Good luck!

Jill

#5 Stealth

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Posted 09 September 2002 - 07:53 PM

Hey guys thank for the info. Its really helped me find a starting place. Its going to take a while to learn the language. However with your web site, I am sure to pick it up fast. Thanks Sanity, Phil, And "Advisor?"
Chris

#6 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 10:50 AM

I got a real easy question for you....where do I start? 


Hello Chris and welcome to the forums,

We have a real easy answer for you ... start at the beginning.

Chris, while that may sound like an obvious answer, the answer is not obvious.

The reason it is not obvious is because if you ask 10 SEOs where to start, the chances are very good that you will get 10 different answers.

Here is our answer.

Start with an overview, much in the same way you would when you sit down to put together a 1000 piece puzzle.

1.) You have an actual picture to look at.

2.) Separate the border pieces from the inner pieces.

3.) Separate the inner pieces by colors.

4.) Put together (interlink) the border pieces first.

5.) Put together (interlink) the remaining inner pieces.


Okay, now let's apply this process to SEO.


[color=
The picture you need to look at here, are the search engines themselves. Now, depending on whose article or ad you've read, you may believe that there are upwards of say, 5000 search engines. This is not true.

There are only these 6 search engines that you really need to know about and learn about.

- Google http://www.google.com/ http://www.google.com/technology/

- FAST/AllTheWeb http://www.alltheweb.com/ http://www.fastsearc...hnology/atw.asp

- Inktomi http://www.inktomi.c..._inclusion.html

- AltaVista http://www.altavista.com/ http://www.altavista.com/sites/about

- Ask Jeeves/Teoma http://www.askjeeves.com/ http://www.teoma.com/ http://ask.ineedhits.com/

- WiseNut http://www.wisenut.com/ http://www.zeal.com/...directory.jhtml


[color=
While the 6 search engines above can be likened to the border pieces of our search engines puzzle, the following search sites can be likened to some of the inner pieces of our search engines puzzle because their search results are related in some way to the 6.

This is not an in-depth look, but merely a quick overview.

- Google powers ... AOL, Yahoo Web Pages (secondary results), Netscape, etc.

- FAST powers ... Lycos

- Inktomi powers ... MSN Web Pages (secondary results), Overture (non PPC results), HotBot, LookSmart (Web Sites from Inktomi)

- WiseNut is owned by ... LookSmart http://www.sharehold...20408-76372.cfm


[color=
This step can be likened to the various "flavors" of results these search engines produce, such as ...

a.) Paid Inclusion (Inclusion Guaranteed) - (All but Google and WiseNut)

- FAST - Lycos InSite Select http://searchservice...searchservices/

- Inktomi - Search Submit & Index Connect http://www.inktomi.c..._inclusion.html

- AltaVista - Express Inclusion http://www.altavista...s/search/addurl http://www.altavista.com/r?ab1

- Ask Jeeves/Teoma - Site Submit http://ask.ineedhits.com/


b.) Paid Placement (Inclusion & Ranking Guaranteed - Pay Per Click) - (Google, FAST)

- Google - AdWords Select https://adwords.google.com/select/

- FAST - Lycos InSite AdBuyer http://searchservice...searchservices/

PLEASE NOTE: Overture http://www.overture.com/ (although not a true search engine (spider based) but a Pay Per Click type search site) has formed partnerships with some of the above search engines and a "top three" listing with them will result in a "sponsored" listing which are usually placed before the actual free or "editorial" listings.

This is an excellent way to get immediate traffic to your Website and a good way to test your various keywords for ROI.


c.) Free Placement (Inclusion Not Guaranteed) (All)

While the "conventional" wisdom is to submit your site and all its pages to the search engines' "Add URL" page, either manually or automatically with special software or Web programs, our advice is to NOT submit your site and its pages at all.

The reason is simple. The search engines don't pay any attention to the pages submitted this way anymore. They used to, but not anymore and many SEOs and would-be SEOs are still writing articles and advocating this obsolete method of getting your Website listed. This information is outdated and useless.

So why do the search engines still have these "Add URL" pages. Simple, because people expect them and they need the opportunity to submit their pages and the certain amount of "security" they feel when doing so. Just think of all the eMail the engines would receive every day if they were to eliminate these pages.

The reason the search engines don't use the pages submitted this way anymore is because of SPAM.

A spokesperson for AltaVista has been quoted as saying that 90% of all the pages submitted via the "Add URL" pages are SPAM. If you will just stop and really think about that for a moment, you will soon realize that since they don't want SPAM in their databases, the best way to keep it out is to not index it in the first place.

Also a spokesperson for AllTheWeb has been quoted as saying that AlltheWeb actually crawls 5-6 billion pages, and only indexes just over 2.1 billion pages. The difference is that the other pages do not contain quality material.

In our opinion it would be logical that the other engines would experience similar situations.


[color=
Now that you know which search engines are the border pieces, make sure you get lots of links from other pages that are already listed in these engines, and preferably from the highest ranking ones that are related to your topic or keywords.

Our advice, to give you the best possible opportunity of being indexed in all of the search engines for free, is to create unique content pages with keyword rich text and to inform as many other sites about them so that they will want to link to them with your specific keywords in the Anchor Tag Text.

This will accomplish two very important things for you ...

1.) Get your pages listed in all the search engines.

2.) Get your pages high rankings in all the search engines.


[color=
There is another aspect that we'll end with that would involved the non search engine sites. They are called directories. Newbies usually use the term "search engine" to include these types of sites, but they are actually directories built by human beings and not by robot spiders like the search engines. These directories include Yahoo, DMOZ and LookSmart.

- Yahoo - Free - For Non Commercial Sites http://docs.yahoo.com/info/suggest/
- Yahoo - Fee - US$299.00 non-refundable, recurring annual fee - Yahoo! Express 7-Day Guarantee
... Required for commercial listings but available for any site
... Guaranteed and expedited consideration of your site within 7 business days
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/suggest/ http://add.yahoo.com/fast/add?335416

- DMOZ - Free - The ODP is maintained by community editors who evaluate sites for inclusion in the directory. They are our experts, and all submissions are subject to editor evaluation.
http://www.dmoz.org/add.html

- LookSmart - Free - For Non Commercial Sites http://www.zeal.com/
- LookSmart - Fee - $49 Set Up Fee Plus $0.15 Per Click Through - Look Listings
... Submit your Website to target customers at the very moment they are searching for what you sell.
... Pay only when a potential customer clicks on your listing.
... Unused funds carry over and are refundable. Cancel any time.
... Your listing manages itself according to your targets. No need to continually monitor a bid or placement.
http://listings.look...e&chan=lshomepg

[color=
This is a good place to start ... http://www.bruceclay...enginechart.pdf

[color=

Since this is my first post I will give you a brief (yea right) rundown on things. I have been making web pages for about 4 yrs now.  Nothing big,  just for peoples weddings or for a friends online game site. Stuff like that. Well no one told me you could make money doing this. So I have a friend who's Boss wanted a web site built for his real estate company. I built him a page (Still building), however I knew that I would need to get him on the Web for his site to succeed. So I looked all over and some of these place who want to list websites for search engines can go into the thousands. WOW.


Chris, don't be fooled by these types of ads and this type of hype. As we just pointed out, forget about the 1000's of so-called search engines and only concentrate on the real ones.

So I stumbled upon Webposition Gold. Well it sounds great on paper, but the jest of it is I have no idea what I am doing. I am as newbie as it gets.


Well, then here is our advice for Newbies about automated SEO software. Set it aside and forget about it. Learn all you can from the ethical and knowledgeable SEOs on the SEO forums and SEO newsletters that abound.

But I cannot figure this stuff out for the life of me. HELP! I really need to know how and where to start. Any info (No matter how simple) would be greatly appreciated. 


Chris, we certainly hear your pain and your frustration.

You will do just fine as long as you keep ONE very important aspect about SEO in mind and that is that ...

[color=
Don't expect results like high rankings right away (unless you pay for them on a PPC) but just keep acquiring links to your wonderful and unique resource pages that you are now contemplating, so that everyone who has related pages will WANT to link to it to benefit their own visitors as well as enhance their own site by pointing to such an authoritative page, and all without you having to link back to them. This is this key to getting and being properly linked.

I will be here very often.


That's important, stay in the loop, and keep up with all the vital changes that take place almost hourly. Well maybe not that often, but it could feel like it if you lose touch.

P.S.  (Hey look a specific question):  How does the payment to the search engines work?  Which engines do you pay for?  How are you billed?  Do you need to sign up on the engine then upload your "Optimized pages" (However the hell you optimize a page)?


Chris, just follow the above links we've provided and all your questions will be answered.

Now, as far as actually optimizing for "On The Page" ranking criteria, here is what we recommend.


We highly recommend that you include a robots.txt and that you include a Site Map page so that the spiders can easily find all your pages.

Information about the robots.txt file
http://www.robotstxt...sion-admin.html

For more information ... Standard For Robot Exclusion
http://www.robotstxt.../wc/robots.html

Place your robots.txt file in your root directory, like this ...

http://www.your-domain.com/robots.txt

The robots.txt file will allow all the spiders to properly crawl your pages.

If you want EVERYTHING spidered, then use the following syntax ...


------
This one allows all robots to index everything. The asterisk (*) in
the User-agent field allows "all robots" in and because nothing is
disallowed, everything is allowed.

User-agent: *
Disallow:
------


------
This one keeps all robots out.

User-agent: *
Disallow: /
------

------
This one keeps all robots out of the cgi-bin and images directories:

User-agent: *
Disallow: /cgi-bin
Disallow: /images
------


[color=
One of the main reasons a Web page doesn't rank well is because the keyword density is too low (or too high). A good rule of thumb starting point is to start with a keyword density of around 7%. (Please Note: Since SEO is NOT an exact science, this percentage will be different between the various search engines as well as the various keywords themselves. SEO is a lot like the card game Bridge, in that certain SEO techniques will TRUMP other SEO techniques and they will vary from page to page.)

The important thing to recognize when writing copy to be search engine friendly is that you must address BOTH the search engines and your potential customer/client.

If you concentrate only upon the search engines and get your keywords precisely at the desired density that you know will be effective to rank your page high in the results, but when folks begin to read your copy, it makes very little sense to them or worse, it doesn't grab or hold their interest, then you have not accomplished your end result, which is both a high ranked page so folks will click through to your page and then to also present them with compelling copy that will lead to them making a purchase.

Getting people to your page is only the FIRST part of the equation. The SECOND part is making the sale.

[color=

Then, not only is it important to get the proper density for your keywords, but the location, order and proximity are all very essential to a high ranking as well.

[color=

[color=
You do know that the Meta Keywords Tag is utterly USELESS (except for Inktomi) right?

You do know that the Meta Description Tag is utterly USELESS for Google right?

Now, while you should still OPTIMIZE these two Meta Tags, just make sure your expectations of what they will and will not do for ranking consideration is firmly a part of your overall understanding of SEO.

Just FYI, here is what we recommend you place in the Head Tag <head> ...

<head>
<title>your 3-word phrase (then add compelling copy)</title>
<meta name="keywords" content="your 3-word phrase">
<meta name="description" content="use compelling copy">
<meta name="robots" content="index, follow">
<meta name="MSSmartTagsPreventParsing" content="true">
<meta http-equiv="content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<link href=/my-various-code.js type=text/css rel=stylesheet>
<script language="JavaScript" src="/my-various-code.js"></script>
</head>


[color=
It never ceases to amaze us how many people don't have any concept of how important this particular tag is. As far as "On The Page" ranking criteria goes, it is the
This is not an optimized example ...

<title>your company name home page</title>

This is ...

<title>your 3-word phrase (then add compelling copy)</title>

This IS the very first line that people see when your listing appears in the search engines.

What you put here should be the deciding factor for your visitor to click on your listing over all the others shown, so write your copy accordingly. Don't use hype or just a list of keywords, but rather use what you want people to type into the search engines to find this page, then add some compelling copy to get them to click through.


[color=
We recommend that your URL Name & File Name MATCH your HTML Title Tag. The reason is because you then make it EASY for folks to know how to link back to your page. If they insert the proper keywords in the Anchor Tag Text of the Backward Link they create, it will help boost your ranking consideration and then eventually get your page to the
<title>Hampden Maine Real Estate Listings - 1-800-123-456-7890 - Owner's Name</title>

http://www.maine-rea...e-listings.com/

Now, if you attain a
---
real estate 18325
real estate listings 6529
maine real estate 1490

Source: http://www.wordtracker.com/
---


[color=
This is the
Research words that will bring you "buyers" and not just "visitors" or the more aptly named, "looky-loo" ... You want folks who are coming to "buy" your product(s) or service(s), so use keywords to target and attract them only. So optimize for specific terms and not general ones.

For example, don't just optimize for "baby clothes", but for "baby clothes 2T" or "baby clothes girls 2T"

Many SEO professionals who monitor statistics for their clients will give them monthly reports that in our opinion are useless, like how many "unique visitors" they received or what this keyword and that keyword ranks in the results pages.

Those numbers would really be useful if they also included the number and amount of sales that were a direct result of those stats.

For instance, if our SEO told us that we ranked
We mention this because we believe that most business owners have the concept that if their keyword is ranked at
And not only are such stats important to know for the SAME search engine, but also for various search engines.

For example, a
These are the type of statistics that would be useful and important to SEO clients, right? Make it a point to keep track of these factors right from the beginning of your SEO campaign.

[color=
[color=

[color=
The best place to put your Heading Tag is right after the Body Tag <body> like this ...

<h1>Your Keywords</h1>

Also place a Heading Tag in the middle of your page and you could place one at the end if your page is about 600 words or around 9k in size or larger.

Sprinkle your keywords in Bold Text throughout like this ...

<b>Your Keywords</b>


[color=
Whenever possible use Text Links to your interior pages or back to your Home Page, but if you insist on image links then be sure to include an ALT Tag like this ...

<a href="http://www.your-domain.com/"><img src=logo.gif alt="This Is ALT Tag Text"></a>

This is what Craig Silverstein, Chief Technology Officer of Google has to say about ALT Tags ...

------
ALT Tags

For companies who have built Websites without much text where the copy is represented in the graphics Craig suggests that they employ the ALT tags and either re-create the body copy contained in the graphics in the ALT tags and attempt to describe the "concepts" depicted in the graphics.
------


Our advice is that you really do not need to optimize your pages differently for this or that search engine even though they use different algorithms to rank their pages. This way of optimization was advised and advantageous at one time (years ago), but is no longer the case. In fact, you may still find and read other outdated SEO advice, here and there on various Webpages or in various eZines and Newsletters, so be very careful what you consider to be good and useful advice. Some of it may get your pages into real trouble.

We know that once you have optimized your pages "perfectly" for Google FIRST, and they then begin to increase in the rankings each and every month, that all of your rankings on the other search engines will begin to increase as well.

Just be diligent and be patient and most of all ...

[color=

Chris, in conclusion, if we have confused you in any way or brought some questions to mind, please don't hesitate to ask them, as we'll be glad to answer them for you.

Happy SEOing,

Your Friends,

Sharon & Roy

#7 peter_d

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 06:24 PM

Hi Stealth

Welcome to the forums :lol:

Here are some excellent resources that provide instruction for those starting out.

http://www.webmaster...forum3/2010.htm
http://www.highranki...om/articles.htm
http://www.bruceclay.com/web_rank.htm

The Webmasterworld article in particular is a very good step-by-step process. SEO can get a lot more complicated, depending on your target market and technology, but get the basics right and you'll probably find that's all you need.

#8 Guest_Phil_*

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 08:34 PM

The search engines don't pay any attention to the pages submitted this way anymore. They used to, but not anymore ....


Hi S&R,

You are saying that submitting sites and pages to the main engines (free submission) has no effect whatsoever. The submitted pages won't be spidered - end of story. Does it apply to all the engines that you listed? How do you know? Submitting to Inktomi, via one of its submission points, still works unless it has changed very recently. And I just don't believe that AV would introduce the ransom note not so very long ago if they were simply ignoring free submissions. They may have started to ignore them since, of course. This is the first time that I've heard anyone say that the free submissions are ignored. Do you have evidence of that?

You mentioned aiming at about 7% keyword density. Would you expand on that please? I'm assuming that you are talking about the printable text but you may be including other things like alt text and even meta tags (description and keywords).

My queries:-

Suppose we have a page with 100 printable words on it. They include such words as 'the', 'a', 'in', and so on. Does this type of word count when considering percentages?

The same 100 printable word page (it's a nice round figure for the example):-

(1) I have a a 1-word search term. Should the search term occupy about 7 of the 100 words?

(2) I have a 2-word search term. Should the 2-word term occupy around 7 of the 100 words; i.e. 3 to 4 instances of the search term? Or do you count the 2-word term as 1 word when working out the approximate percentage?

(3) I have a 3-word search term. Same question as (2) i.e. 2 instances or does it count as 1 word when working out the approximate percentage?

Phil.

#9 peter_d

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 08:43 PM

Forget precise density, it's nonsense. There are too many other factors in the mix.

Read the webmasters world link above. Take rough aim at density, but it's far more important to ensure the site reads well.

#10 chris

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 09:01 PM

I'm just being pedantic and slightly off-topic here but...

This one keeps all robots out of the cgi-bin and images directories: 

User-agent: * 
Disallow: /cgi-bin 
Disallow: /images


Should be:

User-agent: *
Disallow: /cgi-bin/
Disallow: /images/


Although so many people get it wrong. An example of the difference is, that the first one bans /images-of-france.html and the second one doesn't. You have to be really really careful with your robots.txt, this is the kind of thing that often leaves you wondering for ages why you can't seem to get your images-of-france page to rank! :lol:

#11 Guest_Phil_*

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Posted 10 September 2002 - 09:47 PM

Forget precise density, it's nonsense. There are too many other factors in the mix.


I don't think that S&R were meaning that one should be quite so precise, Peter. My examples were precise so that I could make my questions clear. I'm just wanting to know what they mean by density, what words are counted and how search terms of various wordcounts are calculated - if I want to be very precise.

Phil.

#12 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 07:14 AM

The search engines don't pay any attention to the pages submitted this way anymore. They used to, but not anymore ....


Hi S&R,

You are saying that submitting sites and pages to the main engines (free submission) has no effect whatsoever. The submitted pages won't be spidered - end of story. Does it apply to all the engines that you listed?


YES.

How do you know?


Research.

And I just don't believe that AV would introduce the ransom note not so very long ago if they were simply ignoring free submissions.


A spokesperson for AltaVista has been quoted as saying that 90% of all the pages submitted via the "Add URL" pages are SPAM. If you will just stop and really think about that for a moment, you will soon realize that since they don't want SPAM in their databases, the best way to keep it out is to not index it in the first place.

Also a spokesperson for AllTheWeb has been quoted as saying that AlltheWeb actually crawls 5-6 billion pages, and only indexes just over 2.1 billion pages. The difference is that the other pages do not contain quality material.

In our opinion it would be logical that the other engines would experience similar situations.

They may have started to ignore them since, of course. This is the first time that I've heard anyone say that the free submissions are ignored. Do you have evidence of that?


You will easily see the evidence when you submit a page without any inbound links, it won't ever be indexed unless there is at least one link to it from another page already in the search engine (that is as long as it contains quality material).

This is why we are always advocating that getting listed and getting ranked high in the search engines are based entirely on how sites link to each other.

We can't say enough about getting properly linked. In fact, we just showed (on another forum) how a CONTENT-LESS Frameset page is ranked
The reason it's
Most people, need to visit the "Add URL" pages at the search engines and submit their pages. It gives them a "sense" of security, but the real reason they get indexed is because they are properly linked. Those that aren't properly linked will be the ones you see posting questions like these ...

It has been over 3 or 4 months now and I have submitted to every search engine there is and my site is still not listed. Why?

Food For Thought: Do you see an "Add Your URL" link on Google's Home Page? Why not?

You mentioned aiming at about 7% keyword density. Would you expand on that please? I'm assuming that you are talking about the printable text but you may be including other things like alt text and even meta tags (description and keywords).


Hi Phil.

Good questions,

Just count the words in the HTML Title Tag and the visible Body Text.

My queries:-

Suppose we have a page with 100 printable words on it. They include such words as 'the', 'a', 'in', and so on. Does this type of word count when considering percentages?


NO.

Don't count the usual "stop words" (very common, meaningless words).

The same 100 printable word page (it's a nice round figure for the example):-

(1) I have a a 1-word search term. Should the search term occupy about 7 of the 100 words?


We use 7% as a "measuring stick" ONLY. That means that sometimes you can have a 12% density with no problems and other times a 2% density and still rank well. We use this figure as a starting point for those who need one. If you start with a 33% density, obviously that won't be an optimized (or even a readable) density.

(2) I have a 2-word search term. Should the 2-word term occupy around 7 of the 100 words; i.e. 3 to 4 instances of the search term? Or do you count the 2-word term as 1 word when working out the approximate percentage?


If your 2-word term is ... red firetruck ... then ...

red = 7% density

firetruck = 7% density

The search engine algorithm will formulate INDIVIDUAL words, BUT word order, word proximity, and word placement all contribute to higher ranking consideration.

(3) I have a 3-word search term. Same question as (2) i.e. 2 instances or does it count as 1 word when working out the approximate percentage?


If your 3-word term is ... big red firetruck ... then ...

big = 7% density

red = 7% density

firetruck = 7% density


Phil, for what it is worth, while keyword density is important, don't labor over EXACT measurements here. If your copy reads well for your visitors and you have placed your key terms in your HTML Title Tag, Headings Tags and sprinkled generously through the page, you'll be just fine.

But you will do even BETTER if you include the keywords for that page in every one of your Backward Links (inbound links) even if they are from your own domain. The more of these link you have the more ranking consideration your page will get and then the higher it will rank.

#13 Advisor

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 07:48 AM

S&R, I wonder how you (or anyone else) could explain this one...

I have a new client's site with a brand new domain name. Nobody ever owned it before, it has no incoming links anywhere. But guess what? Google already has it in it's index. It wasn't even designed yet, and it only has the placeholder that says "coming soon" or whatever. (It's now in the design process, but that's what Google has in it's cache.) A backwards link check shows that there are no backward links. But there it is in the index.

Apparently Google is somehow getting ALL sites. Maybe even from the domain registries?

Jill

#14 Guest_Phil_*

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 07:50 AM

Google could get the info about the domain's existance from the toolbar if anyone who has the toolbar installed has accessed the site.

Phil.

#15 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 07:50 AM

Forget precise density, it's nonsense. There are too many other factors in the mix.


I don't think that S&R were meaning that one should be quite so precise, Peter. My examples were precise so that I could make my questions clear. I'm just wanting to know what they mean by density, what words are counted and how search terms of various wordcounts are calculated - if I want to be very precise.


Yes, indeed, Phil. We only included that into the mix of various SEO Techniques for our friend, Chris, the Newbie SEO, as we are sure that he will soon encounter information about keyword density, so we just gave him a place to start from.

You know what we find really "funny" about SEO these days?

The various METHODS folks use to attempt to get high rankings and the FINE TUNING they focus in on.

So for the benefit of our Newbie SEO, we just want to say, FORGET about FINE TUNING your pages.

Just write your pages with compelling copy with a call to action for your visitors and just acquire as many links back to that page with as many various keywords as you want to rank high for and that's all you need to do.

SEO is very simple these days.

Some folks just don't want to believe how simple it really is so they make it harder on themselves then they need to.

We certainly hope that our Newbie friend, Chris, will take heed of our advice and take that into consideration when he reads all the books and articles and postings in the coming weeks, because with all the conflicting and outdated information he'll soon encounter, he could really get confused.

So Chris, just remember that ...

[color=
It is based entirely on how sites link to each other.

That is the big SEO picture, so don't ever fret over the small stuff, like "On The Page" criteria.

Happy SEOing,

Your Friends,

Sharon & Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:03 AM

It is based entirely on how sites link to each other.


No, no, no, no, no!

Please don't say that it's based entirely on how sites link to each other as that is simply WRONG.

SEO is based on many factors, one of which is how sites link to each other.

Another of which is the words on the page. Anyone who disregards the importance of the words on the page for high rankings, is missing out on an even simpler way to achieve them. It's something you have ultimate control of, as opposed to getting links from other pages which is not all that easy to do.

SEO is NOT entirely based on how sites link to each other. It's NOT, it's NOT, it's NOT!!!!!!!

Not entirely. Not even close.

Jill

#17 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:03 AM

S&R, I wonder how you (or anyone else) could explain this one...

I have a new client's site with a brand new domain name. Nobody ever owned it before, it has no incoming links anywhere. A backwards link check shows that there are no backward links. But there it is in the index.


Hi Jill,

That's hard to say without the URL, but keep in mind that just because you do a Backward Links check on Google and they don't display any, does NOT mean that the page doesn't have any.

Currently pages with a PageRank3 or less won't display any Backward Links even though they have them.

We have over 300 links to our page but Google won't display any of them.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:21 AM

Hi S&R,

You haven't given any reason to suppose that submissions no longer work. It is all just supposition. I see no reason for engines to continue to have add url pages if they are ignoring submissions. I doesn't make any sense at all.

AV said that about 90% of submission are spam some years ago. Since then, they introduced the ransom note. Why? Ok, it could have been done just to lighten the load on their equipment but I don't see reason to think that. Why not simply remove the free submission form altogether?

Manual submissions to Inktomi (via partners) does work. It has worked for me very recently.

Google said from the start that, unless a page is linked to from another page, it cannot get into the index. So submitted pages that don't have any other pages linking to them won't get in. That's not evidence that submissions don't work. Other engines are also big on links and it may be that they have followed Google in that respect.

The idea that "it would be logical" to ignore submissions, doesn't hold up. It may be logical, but that isn't evidence. I said in another thread that it would make good sense for engines to give some weight to the text immediately following an anchor when a link from another page points to the anchor. But I can't conclude that they do it just because it makes good sense.

I'm sorry my friends, but you haven't given any reason to think that submissions are ignored.

Phil.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:25 AM

Hi Jill,

That's hard to say without the URL, but keep in mind that just because you do a Backward Links check on Google and they don't display any, does NOT mean that the page doesn't have any.

Currently pages with a PageRank3 or less won't display any Backward Links even though they have them.

We have over 300 links to our page but Google won't display any of them.

No, you're not hearing me. This site HAS NO LINKS.

It was just registered, and isn't even a site yet. I know that there are no links to it anywhere. I'm not saying that google shows it as no links (although it does). It absolutely, positively has NO links pointing to it. The site was only dreamed up recently, the domain name the same.

No links pointing to it. In Google. Never submitted. End of story.

J

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:30 AM

I'm sorry my friends, but you haven't given any reason to think that submissions are ignored.

I agree, Phil.

Although, I believe that it's not necessary to submit to the add url forms, I have seen evidence that it can speed up the indexing. It's happened too many times to be a coincidence imo. Both with Google and with FAST. Submitting is definitely the least of things you need to worry about, but it can give you a bit of a quicker entry into some of the engines, and it certainly doesn't hurt to do it (as some have said in the past). If you're submitting spam (sorry Phil I know you don't like that word :mad: ), that might hurt, but if you're submitting a regular old site, it's not a problem.

Jill

#21 Guest_Phil_*

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:30 AM

Does the site have more than one page yet, Jill? If so, do any of its pages point to any other of its pages? If it has and they do, and the toolbar is installed when accessing a page on the site, then that would be one way for Google to be aware of it and to include it in the index.

Phil.

#22 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:32 AM

It is based entirely on how sites link to each other.


No, no, no, no, no!

Please don't say that it's based entirely on how sites link to each other as that is simply WRONG.


Well, Jill, on this issue, it will just have to be a case of us agreeing to disagree with you, then.

We are sorry if you don't believe the evidence we posted about Pizza Hut ranking
Oh, okay, it does have "some" content, it has three words in the HTML Title Tag ...

Pizza Hut | Welcome

And we'll even say that if they remove those words altogether, that the page will still rank at
How do you explain that, without saying that ...

"Rankings are based entirely on how sites link to each other?"

After all, it's not like there's no evidence to back up that claim, and therefore prove it to be true, because there is.

#23 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:38 AM

The site was only dreamed up recently, the domain name the same.


What is the URL?

So are you saying that the page was already indexed before the domain name was bought?

Then compare the cache date with the date it was purchased.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:43 AM

S&R, that proves absolutely nothing except that linking helps your SEO!

Nobody is disputing that. I can show you evidence of pages that are ranked high simply by their copy. That doesn't mean that it's ENTIRELY about copy.

SEO is a cumulative effort based on a number of factors. The copy on the page is one of them. The links is one of them.

It's not based entirely on anything.

Yes, one can do well by only concentrating on links. But that's not the only way to do SEO, and quite frankly, I don't think it's even a good strategy.

To disregard on the page factors is to make everything twice as hard for you. The best strategy in my opinion, is to do both. Of course linking is important. But of course it's not everything. Not even close. Not by a long-shot. I am truly surprised that anyone who is in the SEO field would actually believe that SEO is ENTIRELY about linking. Off the page...it's about linking. On the page, it's about the words (and other things).

I want anyone reading this to be sure to understand that SEO is definitely NOT entirely about linking.

Jill

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:44 AM

How do you explain that, without saying that ... 

"Rankings are based entirely on how sites link to each other?"

After all, it's not like there's no evidence to back up that claim, and therefore prove it to be true, because there is.


It's not proof, S&R. It is one piece of evidence, but insufficient to draw a firm conclusion with. We all know the importance of IBLs and link text. That's why "Google bombing" works. I haven't looked at the site and I don't know the details of its IBLs so I can't address the example. But we can never say that ranking is due "entirely" to links. You said it yourself when you attributed 60% to links. 60% is a very long way from "entirely".

Btw, which of you writes the posts? Could the person who writes each one sign them for us so we know who we are talking with? Thanks.

Phil.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:47 AM

So are you saying that the page was already indexed before the domain name was bought?

No, it was not indexed before it was bought!

It was bought and not posted anywhere. Now it's in Google. The placeholder page is in Google. I'm not sure how quickly it got into Google after it was bought as I just checked it last night because someone else told me that sites were getting into Google with NO backlinks. I figured that would be a perfect one to check. I really didn't think it would be in, because I know there was no links to it anywhere. Boy was I surprised when there it was!

So, yes folks, sites can get into Google with no backlinks, and without being submitted.

It's doubtful it would rank on any words, but it can and will get indexed. Don't know how, but it does.

Jill

#27 SEO Guy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:49 AM

Pizza Hut | Welcome 

And we'll even say that if they remove those words altogether, that the page will still rank at 
How do you explain that, without saying that ...

There is almost 200 pages of pizza content within the site. Does that have anything do with ranking?

Our company makes many sites with no content on the front page, yet they rank well, even when not optimized. I think it may have something to do with the content that is contained in the rest of the site.
Links are important, the Hut certainly has many, but take a look at the content on their site as opposed to some of the other pizza sites.

Using the first page to show the difference of content v. links is a bit careless. You have to look at the site as a whole, and compare to other sites as a whole.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:50 AM

You said it yourself when you attributed 60% to links. 60% is a very long way from "entirely".

Amen, Brother! :splat:

#29 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:51 AM

Hi S&R,

You haven't given any reason to suppose that submissions no longer work. It is all just supposition. I see no reason for engines to continue to have add url pages if they are ignoring submissions. I doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm sorry my friends, but you haven't given any reason to think that submissions are ignored.


Hi Phil,

We certainly understand your position and there is no problem if we don't agree on this issue.

This will simply have to be one that we agree to disagree on, that's all.

This is simply par for the course when it comes to SEO, as I am sure you are well aware of.

After all, if everyone agreed with each other, there'd be no need for public forums where folks can express their own opinions, experiences and research.

P.S. Since when have the search engines ever made any sense? <WINK>

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:52 AM

P.S. Since when have the search engines ever made any sense?


They make perfect sense to me. They're very logical, in fact. 8)

J

#31 Guest_Phil_*

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:56 AM

There is almost 200 pages of pizza content within the site. Does that have anything do with ranking?


Ah....we're getting back to "themes" now ;)

Phil.

#32 cre8pc

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 08:56 AM

SEO is very simple these days


I think it always was. It was SPAM (SEO techniques that tried to fool engines) that made it difficult, followed by the greed that fueled SEO scams.

I don't like to remember all the times I was threatened with lawsuits by SEO scam companies because I spoke out publically against them. I wrote an article about SEO scams back in 1998 that still exists on my site (hasn't been looked at for awhile. Still has an old font on it even. Likely needs some updating... http://www.cre8pc.com/whim.html) that users loved, but ticked off those who ran so-called free submission tools, especially my recommendation that they supply the list of every place a web site is submitted to so the web site owner could approve or disapprove (i.e. have a choice). I was once attacked so severely for this I took my entire web site down and seriously considered retiring from SEO altogether.

What's so simple is being honest in your work, learning the skills, applying them with integrity, and thinking of your users at all times. The engines are an advertising outlet - same as a magazine, newspaper, TV, radio. They are a tool. They're not the only one available for web sites. A simple business card with a URL is a tool.

My advice to Chris is take it slowly. Gain confidence in your web site skills. Build a web site that users will want to come to. This will get it crawled. If you (and the company) are patient, you need not bother with engine submission at all. (Users who like your site(s) will link to it. Engines will find those links and index your site(s).)

Be realistic about expecations too. If you want 500,000 users a month visiting the site, then you MUST submit and advertise everywhere. If you (and the company) are satisfied with 10,000 users a month, and sales are generating a comfortable profit, and all you ever did was send out a press release, then fine. These things aren't unheard of.

I can tell you that the bulk of my "website rescue" (http://www.cre8pc.com/service.html) work is from web sites who built a site, submitted it to all the top search portals, did the SEO basics such as meta tags (as if that's all they needed to do!), and then wonder why no one is coming to their site, or if they do, nobody bought anything.

If the user isn't satisified, you're dead in the water and no amount of engine submission is going to cure this. This is the one vital piece of information NO "free submission" or automatic submission utility will bother to tell you.

Kim

#33 Sharon_and_Roy

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 09:09 AM

There is almost 200 pages of pizza content within the site. Does that have anything do with ranking?


Hi Matt,

NOPE. Not at all.

I think it may have something to do with the content that is contained in the rest of the site.


Well, as far as Google is concerned here is what Craig Silverstein, Chief Technology Officer of Google has to say ...

Web Site Size

Craig revealed that Web pages are graded individually; therefore there is neither consequence nor value for being part of a larger Web site. This is an important piece of information to those optimizing large corporate sites or four-page sites - technically, all are equal.

Source:http://www.marketposition.com/mp-0601.htm


Links are important, the Hut certainly has many, but take a look at the content on their site as opposed to some of the other pizza sites.


Matt, Google ONLY looks at the content of the INDIVIDUAL page. It does NOT take into account any other pages' content.

Using the first page to show the difference of content v. links is a bit careless.


Absolutely not. It is the way Google's algorithm works.

You have to look at the site as a whole, and compare to other sites as a whole.


We will refer you back to Mr. Silverstein's comments above.

#34 chris

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 09:13 AM

Okay. Firstly Jill - your domain getting in is easily explained and it does have links even if they don't show. I can give you two possibilities, one is obvious and one much less obvious that you've only semi touched on.

1. Somebody's visited it and the browser has incorrectly sent it as the referrer to another page which publishes their referrer logs.

2. I'll explain this by example. When I set up a new domain I was surprised to see a referrer from a site that I forget at the moment. It was low PageRank. I hadn't told anybody about the site. This site had been scanning the domain registries and publishing the domains that were newly registered to their site - with links. They were selling some fancy domain system/thingy but that's unimportant. I had a link and it didn't show in Google. I'd say it is highly likely the same happened to you.


Now on to the add url pages:

You haven't given any reason to suppose that submissions no longer work. It is all just supposition. I see no reason for engines to continue to have add url pages if they are ignoring submissions. I doesn't make any sense at all.


I remember mentioning that Google's submit form doesn't do anything way back and getting the exact same response as S+R were getting here. Thankfully, since then a few more people have wised up. Of course there is every reason for them to keep the form, first and foremost because you expect it there. And that is good enough reason alone, it makes you feel happy to submit! Admit it! ;) Secondly, as S+R said a huge percentage of submissions are SPAM. I'm not saying they necessarily do it - but wouldn't you just love to take the list of submitted sites and compare it with your database and check those for SPAM if you were Google?

Google said from the start that, unless a page is linked to from another page, it cannot get into the index. So submitted pages that don't have any other pages linking to them won't get in. That's not evidence that submissions don't work.


Now if you'd argued that it's not evidence that submissions don't do anything, then you would be right. However, you said "that's not evidence that submissions don't work" - which of course it is. It says right there in that paragraph that you must be linked, if you are linked then you will be found. Therefore submission does nothing that won't happen anyway, ergo it is evidence that submission (at least to google) does not work if your intention is to get in to the index.

The idea that "it would be logical" to ignore submissions, doesn't hold up. It may be logical, but that isn't evidence.


A long time ago, when I was studying at school I was taught a very simple thing in a physics lesson. That was - you cannot prove a theory, only disprove it. Of course, the converse is that the logical reasoning behind some theories is so sound that we generally accept them (e.g. gravity). The theory here is that the submit ignores submissions (at least for the case of getting the page in the index). The logic is that it isn't worthwhile Google using them and Google rarely ever do anything that isn't worth their while. So whilst you're absolutely correct in what your saying, you are saying the equivalent of "Just because we stick to the ground doesn't mean there is gravity. It may be logical, but that isn't evidence". Which again is a perfectly reasonable, but equally as pointless statement.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 09:27 AM

This site had been scanning the domain registries and publishing the domains that were newly registered to their site - with links.


That would also be my guess as to why it got indexed.

Why do you think that the backlink(s) don't show up, however? That seems a bit strange.

J

#36 chris

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 09:48 AM

Because they have very low PageRank and google tries to half the backlinks showing and round down. 1/2 = 0.5 rounded down to 0!

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 10:01 AM

Of course there is every reason for them to keep the form, first and foremost because you expect it there. And that is good enough reason alone, it makes you feel happy to submit! Admit it!  Secondly, as S+R said a huge percentage of submissions are SPAM.

Nonsense. If the form doesn't do anything, there is no reason in the world to keep it. People expecting an add url form is no reason to have one. If a huge percentage of submissions are spam (I don't deny that), there is every reason to remove the form.

Now if you'd argued that it's not evidence that submissions don't do anything, then you would be right. However, you said "that's not evidence that submissions don't work" - which of course it is.

That's precisely what I did argue, chris. I think you've got your words in a twist ;) The fact the submitted pages that have no IBLs don't get indexed is not evidence that submissions to Google don't work. It is only evidence that some submissions don't succed but they are not ignored. Jill pointed out that submitting can sometimes speed up inclusion.

Tell me this. How can a site that has no IBLs from outside the site be indexed by Google? Each page in the site has IBLs from within the site but nothing comes in from the outside. Are you saying that such a site cannot be included in the index? If you are, I would disagree completely.

You said, "Therefore submission does nothing that won't happen anyway". Whether or not it does nothing that won't happen anyway is irrelevant. Because there is more than one way for something to happen does not imply that only one way works. It is certainly not evidence or proof that submissions are ignored. Furthermore, your statement is wrong. The isolated site that I mentioned wouldn't get indexed if submissions were ignored because Google couldn't follow a link to it, and so it wouldn't "happen anyway".

.... you cannot prove a theory, only disprove it.

I frequently tell people that very thing. Nobody knows what gravity is. Nobody knows how it works. Even Steven Hawking's explanation of what physically happens to cause one body to move towards another is laughable. I'm staggered that he even wrote it. I know what happens that physically causes my body to move towards a female body, but it's not the same thing. We digress....

I'm sorry, chris. As I said to S&R, you have shown no evidence for your theory - only supposition.

Phil.

#38 chris

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 10:21 AM

Phil,

I would urge you to go back and read what I said again. Both my answer to Jill's domain thing and my responses to you. I'm not going to repeat the same things to you again because what I said was sound. Google are not nuts, however much you would like to believe it. Google are great at marketing and keeping the submit form there is a great marketing ploy all by itself. I'm being straight with you because your reply was pretty frank.

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 10:41 AM

Chris,

I don't need to study your reply again. You stated opinions, reasonings and suppositions, but you didn't tell us any facts and you gave us no evidence. If you can point to where any of the major engines have stated that they ignore submissions, then I'll accept it of the engines that you point to. But, whilst some of your reasonings do make sense (not the argument about keeping add url pages), they are neither evidence nor proof - merely opinions. From what has been said in this thread, the conclusion that submissions are completely ignored is unjustified. Theories are theories, and that's all they are.

Please note, I didn't say that it is necessary to submit these days. In many cases it isn't, but we haven't discussed that. We are only discussing whether or not all submissions to the major engines are actually ignored - trashed.

Phil.

#40 Advisor

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Posted 13 September 2002 - 11:11 AM

Jill pointed out that submitting can sometimes speed up inclusion.


For some time I agreed with Chris that probably the google add url form didn't do anything. But I've witnessed it work just way too many times for it to be a coincidence.

I've not submitted new sites or pages to Google and waited. Each and every time when I finally submit the URL to google, the very next day it's indexed. It's just happened too many times for me not to believe that it works.

Yes, I realize it could still be a coincidence, but seems weird that Google would just happen to add it the page the next day each and every time I've tried this. I just don't think it's so.

Jill



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