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Who Owns Your Business?


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#1 glyn

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 05:46 AM

This is how Facebook let's you know it's them!

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#2 cre8pc

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 09:29 AM

:emo_gavel: Yeah...Facebook is really becoming a beast!



#3 iamlost

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 05:55 PM

Only if you let it. :)

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#4 earlpearl

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 01:29 PM

This is how Facebook let's you know it's them!

 

 

Glyn:   Where does that show on FB?

 

Seriously:  Google kills smb's and other sites with its Knowledge Boxes (KB) and Knowledge Panels.  They are being expanded.  They simply drive traffic from sites.   They completely control the KB's print in them what they want and distract visits to sites. 

 

Want to avoid those KB's?   Buy google ppc.   Pretty freaking tricky.



#5 EGOL

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 03:47 PM

I was going to sell a couple items on Amazon. These are items that I can get a lot of.

When I started signing up to sell them, they wanted the URL of my website so they could (best of my recollection for the wording) "retrieve information that would be helpful to my Amazon sales".

I stopped dead in my tracks. I don't know exactly what they were going to do, but any sane person with good content shouldn't be granting this type of permission to Amazon - or any large retailer.

Not interested anymore.

#6 bobbb

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 06:07 PM

There must be a way around this. Someone must have solved this. Like a second fake site.

Hmmm. Maybe not worth it.



#7 EGOL

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:48 PM

Either way they are going to snare free content.

#8 earlpearl

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:06 AM

From the comments above it appears that the 3 major websites are each using techniques to grab access and control of your own websites.

 

Amazon, FB, and Google aren't happy with their existing status...they want to squeeze the blood out of all other websites to control traffic and monetize in their own realms let alone push into one another's realms.

 

Its a freaking free for all with 3 giants competing with one another and gettin their grubby fingers into all other sites.  Its the wild west only worse.



#9 bobbb

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:21 AM

Either way they are going to snare free content.

I was thinking more of a not so good web site with not so good content just to serve to Amazon so the content they will steal snare will be not so good. The site would be just contain what you want to sell via Amazon plus other useless do-dads, gizmos, and gadgets to give it a real store look. Surely you will be competing with yourself but this fake site would not really rank anywhere.

I'm sure I have seen sites using different domain names but am sure they are all one hedging their bets.

Of course setting up this "scam site" would offset any potential profit made via Amazon. Then I get back to my original comment:
Hmmm. Maybe not worth it.

 

@earlpearl

Its the wild west only worse.

Or as I like to see it: Business as usual. When, throughout history, have the large companies not tried to squeeze out the competition using predatory tactics or collusion. Business as usual.


Edited by bobbb, 01 August 2017 - 10:28 AM.


#10 EGOL

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:27 AM

From the comments above it appears that the 3 major websites are each using techniques to grab access and control of your own websites.

 

We can add Pinterest to the list of grabbers.   That website was designed to promote copyright infringement.  I think that they should clean it up or go to jail.



#11 iamlost

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:18 PM

If one uses a web platform the way the platform is designed one deserves to be taken; as the spider says to the fly comes to mind...

One can use Amazon and FB and G to one's own advantage aka as marketing vehicles only without being assimilated if one is thoughtful and very very careful.

It's funny but the two biggest Borgs out there rarely get mentioned: Apple iTunes and YouTube.

#12 bobbb

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 10:08 AM

If one uses a web platform the way the platform is designed one deserves to be taken; as the spider says to the fly comes to mind...

One can use Amazon and FB and G to one's own advantage aka as marketing vehicles only without being assimilated if one is thoughtful and very very careful.

It's funny but the two biggest Borgs out there rarely get mentioned: Apple iTunes and YouTube.

We have already ranted here somewhere about Youtube being the biggest in copyright infringement. I have not heard it about iTunes. Don't use it and I thought you paid for downloads.

 

OK, in case someone is interested, so how does one use Amazon without being assimilated? I think that was the theme of this thread.



#13 EGOL

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 10:35 AM

 

how does one use Amazon without being assimilated?

 

You need to do it as a separate business, with a separate website, and be really really stingy about the amount of text you give them, and give then zero images, unless they are essential to your product.



#14 bobbb

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 11:46 AM

Ah then this is like my idea above. I thought I was in left field.



#15 earlpearl

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 11:13 AM

...and then I see this article which suggests embracing google for your local smb marketing and give google all the info ammo. Sigh....

http://localu.org/bl...-new-home-page/

#16 iamlost

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:23 PM

@earlpearl: I do believe that I've previously commented on how pleased I am NOT to be competing in local search. :)
That said, it is a fascinating game to watch from the sidelines and there a number of folks whose comments/views I take quite seriously, Mike Blumenthal being one. I do also, however, view most, again including MB as narrowly Google focussed. If you view him/them as I do then his/their idea of Google Local Search equating with all Local Search equating with all traffic is not surprising nor, ipso facto, is the idea of Google as homepage.

<snark>Google is ALL, after all.</snark>
 


Edited by iamlost, 03 August 2017 - 09:24 PM.


#17 iamlost

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 09:48 PM

iTunes is a walled garden, much as the others, especially regarding iOS mobile apps, which are the most lucrative because iOS users are the most lucrative.

The trick with most/all walled gardens is to find methods of leveraging their reach/audience without giving them your business. Basically it is a matter of smart marketing. And accepting certain costs of doing business, i.e. self hosting videos.
Note: earlpearl's comment and link above is basically suggesting doing with Local what folks have been doing with video on YouTube - let G do the heavy lifting. And reap the benefits for so doing.

I'm not in eCom so my knowledge of what folks do to insulate themselves when dealing with Amazon as a seller is secondhand or via observation only. A huge caution is that just as G is moving into hotel/accommodation, etc. so Amazon moves in on sellers in markets it thinks it can directly dominate by such things as increasing price to play. And as with G and negative SEO et al Amazon sellers are often taken out by competitors.
Example: a common method is to order something from a competitor that is often counterfeited (clothes/cds/dvds) and then report the received (legitimate) item as counterfeit. Bam, seller account terminated. It is a nasty place especially these last few years.
 



#18 earlpearl

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:25 AM

@earlpearl: I do believe that I've previously commented on how pleased I am NOT to be competing in local search. :)
 

 

 

Iamlost:   I didn't know that!!   What a surprising change!!!!  ;)

 

 

I know MB pretty well.  That being said, he and some others in this area subscribe to google to a level with which I simply can't agree, and specifically work to avoid.  Our efforts focus on two things:

 

1.  As much WOM as we can get and then more.  We explore it at every level, including major SM and other methods and simply person to person WOM and referrals.

2.  One of our "types" works very well with WOM, in fact beautifully.  Majority of sales come from it.

3.  The other smb type is highly dependent on search.  So we do what we need to show as well in Goog as we can, all the time kicking screaming and fighting.  Google cares for itself, not the smb's and essentially is creating an environment to make smbs dependent on the Goog and/or dependent on Google PPC.  Its a painful evolution.



#19 bobbb

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 12:05 PM

 
Example: a common method is to order something from a competitor that is often counterfeited (clothes/cds/dvds) and then report the received (legitimate) item as counterfeit. Bam, seller account terminated. It is a nasty place especially these last few years.
 

Interesting enough. Although I had never specifically considered your Amazon example, it ends up being like the fake reviews (positive or negative) talked about in these forums. I know this, you know this, and so does everyone here so Amazon et al must know also. One fake complaint and you're gone. No checking? They must certainly know how this is too easy. This is like the fake news debates raging now and like our Facebook, Google and Twitter: Designated Censors in EU? thread where it will become too easy to kill real news (products/vendor).

 

They can't be that dumb. Or maybe just taking the easy way out.



#20 earlpearl

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:53 AM

That said, it is a fascinating game to watch from the sidelines and there a number of folks whose comments/views I take quite seriously, Mike Blumenthal being one. I do also, however, view most, again including MB as narrowly Google focussed. If you view him/them as I do then his/their idea of Google Local Search equating with all Local Search equating with all traffic is not surprising nor, ipso facto, is the idea of Google as homepage.

<snark>Google is ALL, after all.</snark>
 

 

In all fairness MB has discussed issues other than Google, though he like most commentators and Local SEO experts are google focused.  As an operator so am I.  While it certainly varies by industry, Search by intent is either a or the major driver for many local verticals.

 

That being said, I despair at the commentary that promotes Google as the "answer" to a businesses search needs.  Boy I would qualify that advice.  In a general sense nobody in any industry in any endeavor should put all their eggs in one basket, or as is advised in that piece, respond to every google move to showcase all of one's attributes in the Google Knowledge Box (KB)   Google owns the KB.  They can put anything they want in there including links to competitors, something they have persisted in doing for several years, even as they encourage businesses and customers to feed them with photos and information. 

 

There is enormous risk in going "all out google".  Its a slippery treacherous slope.



#21 iamlost

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

Way back I realized something about Google's various tools, i.e. Keyword Planner, Insights/Trends: they put all those competing webdevs into the same bubble, becoming increasingly similarly focussed, a constraint that tends to make publisher sites within the same niche/vertical/industry interchangeable and drive up bids on 'hottest' keywords. A two-fer!!!

 

From his comments I've noticed that earlpearl does a lot of site introspection so his ads are more likely to be based on what actually converts best, however most simply follow G's 'secret sauce' (as do their competitors) as given by their chosen oracles and fight over the same relatively small amount of real estate ignoring vast (often inexpensive) expanses all around.

 

Google rarely, if ever, lies. However, they almost always withhold while appearing to freely share. This has been true since the beginning because their default has always been the bucket sort but only showing some unknown quantity of the buckets and rarely ever the same or the same number each time. Indeed, some of the earliest SEO tools were developed to try and query sufficiently to determine all the buckets and so get an accurate, rather than the usual distorted, data view; none worked all that well and results were often well past use date by the time (rarely) they (possibly) became more defined.

 

That Google has managed to create, however inadvertently, an entire tertiary industry of SEO tools and mystics devoted to (1) catering to G's whims, (2) leveraging some aspect of G data just because they can (not because it has actual benefit), or (3) building entire 'empires' of new clothes out of whole non-existant cloth, and make so many people so much without actually ... sort of like those selling maps to buried treasure or those Nigerian princes who could use your help...


Edited by iamlost, 06 August 2017 - 02:40 PM.


#22 cre8pc

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:04 AM

I'm leaving Amazon.  I had been participating in the Amazon Handmade store, where people can sell things they make. I have an Etsy shop and sell locally and wanted to try Amazon.

 

They take a huge cut of sales and the set up alone is not for the faint of heart. Etsy clearly knows their target users.

 

But the last straw is a series of changes from Amazon that allow, for starters, customers to return something with no questions asked and you pay the shipping fee's. They bombard us with requests to advertise but again, the target of handmade is small time shops with zero ad budgets.

 

Amazon has been losing  money, according to my husband, and is not the revenue cow everyone thinks it is.  



#23 earlpearl

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:00 PM

Way back I realized something about Google's various tools, i.e. Keyword Planner, Insights/Trends: they put all those competing webdevs into the same bubble, becoming increasingly similarly focussed, a constraint that tends to make publisher sites within the same niche/vertical/industry interchangeable and drive up bids on 'hottest' keywords. A two-fer!!!

 

From his comments I've noticed that earlpearl does a lot of site introspection so his ads are more likely to be based on what actually converts best, however most simply follow G's 'secret sauce' (as do their competitors) as given by their chosen oracles and fight over the same relatively small amount of real estate ignoring vast (often inexpensive) expanses all around.

 

Google rarely, if ever, lies. However, they almost always withhold while appearing to freely share. This has been true since the beginning because their default has always been the bucket sort but only showing some unknown quantity of the buckets and rarely ever the same or the same number each time. Indeed, some of the earliest SEO tools were developed to try and query sufficiently to determine all the buckets and so get an accurate, rather than the usual distorted, data view; none worked all that well and results were often well past use date by the time (rarely) they (possibly) became more defined.

 

That Google has managed to create, however inadvertently, an entire tertiary industry of SEO tools and mystics devoted to (1) catering to G's whims, (2) leveraging some aspect of G data just because they can (not because it has actual benefit), or (3) building entire 'empires' of new clothes out of whole non-existant cloth, and make so many people so much without actually ... sort of like those selling maps to buried treasure or those Nigerian princes who could use your help...

 

I agree with a lot of this.  Not so much on my/our efforts.  We run a number of ppc campaigns for different smbs.  Rather than depend on all of google's comments and suggestions we've migrated to what works best for us, not so much to them, nor the advice of the the tertiary industry (SEO's and tool developers) you described.  It took us a long time and we continuously refine those things that work for us vs the advise from google et al. 

 

For one smb with large sales volumes we developed a tremendously open and expansive ppc campaign, simply because the costs were relatively low compared to overall revenues.  It meant we could advertise abundantly on Google PPC and not have to adhere to tight analysis and overly analytical ROI.

 

In that smb type there is still an enormous amount of guesswork.  Its minutely connected to ecommerce.  That means regardless of where visitors click, what phrases they use, etc. it doesn't necessarily connect to actual revenues.  That last part is for us to figure out and know and for Google to NOT KNOW!!!

 

As costs have gone up I have pared it down to try and tighten it to better potential ROI, but its still a guessing game as ultimately sales and clicks do not correspond in a precise manner.

 

All of which suggests that regardless from what google's advisors and algo wizards say, or the ppc/ seo experts say...it simply doesn't tie together that closely.

 

Do everything you can to find other sources besides those 3 big monsters.  They are out for themselves.  And so should the rest of us in business. 





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